Buxomflirter Queef Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 The first one I never had the pleasure to read his/her posts enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gohenko Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 This thread As a side question, why did TSC stop coming to the board anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlodrak Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_entropy Relevant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anxyous Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_entropy Relevant You fail at linking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlodrak Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 You fail at linking. http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5kzus3Fz41qg38ico1_500.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furygirl Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Both are nothing in comparison to TSC though. I wish she'd come back Shhhh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyduh Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Both are nothing in comparison to TSC though. I wish she'd come back I remember her, then I went off the boards for a while and when I came back she was gone. what have you done to TSC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sade Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I think the general mistake is to assume that the guys really think these things out. It's all a bunch of vague concepts and "cool-sounding" ideas thrown together. I couldn't really give a rat's ass about Matt's musings on these topics, but failings in his thought and logic don't bother me either. It's stadium/arena-sized rock music. It's supposed to be a bit stupid. That being said, tl; dr comments annoy me in a message board. Isn't the whole point of message boards for a particular interest supposed to be about borderline-obsessive speculation, really? Just scroll down if the thread doesn't interest you, people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FabriPav Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 That being said, tl; dr comments annoy me in a message board. Isn't the whole point of message boards for a particular interest supposed to be about borderline-obsessive speculation, really? Just scroll down if the thread doesn't interest you, people. You can always scroll down and avoid to read the tl;dr comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sade Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 You can always scroll down and avoid to read the tl;dr comments. This whole thread consists of people attacking the two people discussing the topic so I wanted to give my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jobby Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 This whole thread consists of people attacking the two people discussing the topic so I wanted to give my two cents. 'Attacking' is a bit strong, people were just making light-hearted jokes about how those two always do really long posts. Chillax brah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sade Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 tl;dr comments are really passive-aggressive though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlodrak Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 tl;dr comments are really passive-aggressive though. She has a point. Also it can be sort of offensive to the original poster if they put a lot of effort into writing it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kati Posted August 14, 2012 Author Share Posted August 14, 2012 I think the brain imagery is carrying on with the entropy concept saying that if an individual brain (being a person, not literally the brain) is left as an isolated system (no interaction between others) then they will in turn become unsustainable and gradually become useless, y'know? Basically like Roger Waters' the wall idea. I guess I should thank you for actually discussing the topic Hmm, this is not what I would have thought but it might well be what has passed Matt's mind. I think I read somewhere about these space expansion things, that when all galaxes or entities in the galaxes are far enough from each other they do not interact in any way anymore. I can't remember where that was, but that idea certainly matches your description of people becoming useless if they really get isolated with no communication with each other at all. About the link you posted, well that made me think that gee these different sciences seem to pick the concept of entropy into weird things! I guess it's a fascinating concept, says something very very general and fundamental about universe, like the direction of time, but I think in engineering science people try to avoid it as long as possible. I suppose the attempts to use it on non-exact sciences are doomed, because it really just gives a fancy idea that cannot be used further without mathematical tools. But it gives some credibility for those non-exact sciences, in some people's eyes, maybe. Btw I've seen (or heard) the word entropy also in a song of CMX, a Finnish band (Sade probably knows them). So I guess Matt is not even the only musician fascinated by it. You are partly right, but no I wasn't referring to the original video, but to the Unsustainable video and kind of branching out the ideas in the video. Science is itself a social construction and it socially constructs. This is particularly relevant to the social sciences but also the physical sciences. We interpret information within the confines of what our understanding is in the first place. The famous, we might think there are only white swans if we have never seen a black swan. We also have norms of interpretation which are arbitrary. Take stuff like bell curves which are more about being average than normality or statistical probability. Thus I wondered in that kind of context whether the Unsustainable video was a reference to how simplistic models on which social systems are created cause problems when they conflict with natural inclinations. (That can be stretched to include beneficial social norms, but I doubt that is the intention). At the beginning there are neurones and the brain on a background of written charts and figures. That may simply be meant to be a representation of human progress or scientific progress, but the video and the song also involves a lot of conflict, represented by the discord of the "dubstep" in the music and the scenes of the economic system not working. I was thinking that that could be a representation of the ill fit between systems and nature when the systems are based on false assumptions of what nature and human nature is. Nothing to do with the graphics in the other video. Trying desperately to understand what you mean here... Umm, but wouldn't that original video actually represent the conflict between a model (which is inherently simplistic compared to reality) and natural inclinations? Ok, leaving the original video aside, yes there is a conflict clearly in both the video and the music, plus Matt has talked about his inner conflicts. However, there are simpler interpretations for the conflict than yours of science and it's attempt to apply simple models on complicated natural system. There is also the conflict of news about state debts and need for economical growth to cope with them, and on the other hand the news of shortage of energy sources or the severe problems of fully exploiting them. I suppose if I was a musician looking for something meaningful to say in my songs, I would take the latter conflict. But Matt obviously might have thought about other things too. I think he said somewhere that it's not really about environmental problems. Oh the equations btw are one of the best methods to communicate between minds (referring to the theme of isolated mind). Imo at least I think that Muse using a mix of scientific theories taken from the physical sciences and concepts which are not to do with theories that have been explicitly mapped out in the physical sciences are causing some confusion. Yeah, but as I discussed above in regard to Vlodrak's link, it seems he's not the only one misusing physical theories to describe something completely different. Erm I think moving on from Unsustainable your ideas of the brain being an isolated system and relating this to loneliness because as you say regardless of the physical reality of the brain reacting to outside stimulus, none of us knows what it feels like to have the same brain as another person. And none of us knows what is really going on in the brain of another person. What that person is thinking, feeling etc. We can only make an interpretation based on the information they give us. This made me think about the track that is supposed to be about alienation which we haven't heard yet. Is it Big Freeze? Yes this was what I had in mind, and there isn't really much more to discuss about it. Let's see whether I guessed right and it is a theme in Isolated system, or whether the song is about something completely else. Personally, because I think this has been said on here somewhere, I have no problem with Matt using his own understanding of scientific principles to come up with artistic concepts, whether or not the science is fully understood. He is an artist not a scientist, and that's what all the best artists do in my opinion. They explore ideas both in and out of the box. Hmm, I wrote in thermodynamics thread later than you about nitpicking an artist when he touches a theme that is not his speciality. I honestly had not read your text at that point. But I think we agree on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kati Posted August 14, 2012 Author Share Posted August 14, 2012 You guys sound like English teachers; This must be the most flattering compliment I've ever heard about my English skills I seriously doubt that Belz put that much thought into it. I think the general mistake is to assume that the guys really think these things out. It's all a bunch of vague concepts and "cool-sounding" ideas thrown together. I couldn't really give a rat's ass about Matt's musings on these topics, but failings in his thought and logic don't bother me either. It's stadium/arena-sized rock music. It's supposed to be a bit stupid. Okay, you two: not much thought and bunch of vague concepts still implies some thought. Most of all, they do put some amount of money into the videos. I seriously doubt the actress(?) for the newsreader, the staff needed to record it, or even Tom Kirk did this stuff in a couple of hours as a favour for a friend. There is some money involved. Moreover, as I mentioned earlier Matt said there was an idea behind the TR tour stage setup, and that was expensive and difficult for them. I'm perfectly okay with the idea that there are different concepts and themes on anything they produce, concepts that might have a connection in their mind or they try to pretend there is connection, but the connection is incomprehensible for anyone else. It's a form of art, not science, like discussed, and not even "serious" art. I'm also fine thinking that some visual effects are there only in order to look cool, it's just difficult to know which ones are just cool and which ones are there to convey whatever ideas they had. I'm for example thinking that the brain cells have a meaning and the grids on the band members performing in the robot screen clips are just about looking cool, but it might as well be other way around So I don't quite buy the thought that there is nothing to interpret in the video (or any other visual, er, product, they publish). Anyway, even if it goes beyond their original thoughts, I personally find it more fun to speculate on the video contents than, well, a lot of stuff going on on the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kati Posted August 14, 2012 Author Share Posted August 14, 2012 She has a point. Also it can be sort of offensive to the original poster if they put a lot of effort into writing it Don't worry, I'm starting to find the tl;dr comments amusing, as long as there is someone replying the thoughts. Plus I don't put that much effort into my long posts, I use ten-finger typing system you see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlodrak Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Personally I love the idea of people interpreting it differently, that's the best type of art! I do think that Matt has a clear idea of what he's singing about specifically 80% of the time, but I think that they try and keep a more mysterious aspect to the songs, so they can be applied universally and can be re-interpreted It's like the 2001: A Space Odyssey film. No one in the world knows absolutely for certain what it was about, but everyone that watches it thinks of their own theories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarrieB Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_entropy Relevant I had conveniently completely forgotten that there was the idea of entropy in there. Hmm this may well be relevant to the concept of the album but I'm not sure it is a good theory. I can't really see what the basis is to suggest that all social systems move towards disorder over time. I think what happens in social systems is a lot more complex though I suppose social change can occur as a result of occurrences that are a lot more muddled or random than is suggested by progressive ideas. However the reference to entropy doesn't seem to support my suggestion that they are questioning over-simplistic theories. Personally I love the idea of people interpreting it differently, that's the best type of art! I do think that Matt has a clear idea of what he's singing about specifically 80% of the time, but I think that they try and keep a more mysterious aspect to the songs, so they can be applied universally and can be re-interpreted It's like the 2001: A Space Odyssey film. No one in the world knows absolutely for certain what it was about, but everyone that watches it thinks of their own theories Yes I agree, even if we do end up coming out with mumbo jumbo. Oh and I get the impression that Matt does think quite deeply about stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee3Dee Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 'Attacking' is a bit strong, people were just making light-hearted jokes about how those two always do really long posts. Chillax brah I still think they're the same person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bumpypotato Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 I still think they're the same person. Like you've never made two accounts for the purpose of talking to yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kueller Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Like you've never made two accounts for the purpose of talking to yourself. Reported for Global Rule 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarrieB Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Whatever the intended meaning. And it still makes me think the same stuff I posted when I see the bell curves, charts etc, along with the the scans of the human brain and the robot (a conflict between social systems, scientific theories or whatever and nature) it feels deep and emotional. That's in the music. On a lighter note, I can see something in a metaphor of entropy in social systems if rather than referring to energy depletion it is referring to randomness or stuff tending to break down and end in chaos. There is the term "street level bureaucrats" which refers to how people at low levels of organisations adapt the rules to what they feel works, or even, I suppose, fits in with their own interests, outlooks, feelings or motivations. So for instance the clerk in the job centre has had a bad day so instead of fully investigating the options, he coughs in your face and says "the computer says no". Or the banker is competing with his colleague in the next office, plus if he sets up enough deals that day, he might just get that swimming pool! I think in that way there is room for the idea of, at least, a lay person's interpretation of entropy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FabriPav Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Reported for Global Rule 10. Reported because you report everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kueller Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Reported because you report everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kati Posted August 15, 2012 Author Share Posted August 15, 2012 Whatever the intended meaning. And it still makes me think the same stuff I posted when I see the bell curves, charts etc, along with the the scans of the human brain and the robot (a conflict between social systems, scientific theories or whatever and nature) it feels deep and emotional. That's in the music. On a lighter note, I can see something in a metaphor of entropy in social systems if rather than referring to energy depletion it is referring to randomness or stuff tending to break down and end in chaos. Funny, it seems you associate curves and equations as scientific theories conflicting the nature, whereas I see them only as methods of describing the nature. Descriptions are always flawed - I work with such mathematical modelling stuff and me or any colleagues with a few years experience would never ever think the models are a perfect picture of the nature, just tools hopefully capturing the most important phenomena. But I know people who don't actually work with the stuff sometimes think it is able or should be able to predict everything. It also seems based on some interviews of Matt, that your idea of entropy as implying hopeless chaos is more what he thinks. I always think with entropy the example of tint in water, which when dropped in, according to the entropy law, inevitably will mix with water until the liquid is uniformly coloured. For me the end result is more harmonic than the starting position That's pretty far from your picture. Anyway probably all our interpretations can be correct, and yes a bit of ambiguousity leaves much more room for thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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