Doms Drums

[cheddatom]

 

 

How presumtuous can you get...?

 

What is my presumption? I have been in the studio with numerous drummers. A double kick is more consistent in velocity, and therefore in tone. It's a technical fact. Like I say, you may have your own ideas about production, but if you're in a rock band that's going to get radio play, all the kicks on your song have to be almost identical. When I say "have to be" obviously, this isn't a fact, but it is the predominant trend, and without a doubt, that is fact.

 

NO IT DOESN'T! Do I have a communication problem, too?

 

ANYTHING YOU NEED A DOUBLE FOR DOES NOT SOUND GOOD........Unless you play good music...

 

I think we're talking about different things. If a drummer NEEDS a double kick to play a beat, then that says something about the beat. I'm not talking about beats, i'm talking about sound.

 

I don't think you can read.

 

Heh, that's a bit personal. You still haven't justified not wanting a double kick. If you had as much money as you wanted for your kit, you wouldn't buy a double kick, and I think that's a bad choice, and you haven't explained why it's a good one.

 

I don't like the fact that quotes of me were lumped in with quotes from other people, and turned into one big rant. There was one reply reffering to your ability to put someone down. However, I think you were just putting down portnoy in relation to someone else's opinion.

 

So, yeh, why would you not buy a double kick if you had enough money?

[stakka]

 

Heh, that's a bit personal. You still haven't justified not wanting a double kick. If you had as much money as you wanted for your kit, you wouldn't buy a double kick, and I think that's a bad choice, and you haven't explained why it's a good one.

 

 

Don't take things personally Chedda (Tom?) - this place is good for lively debate and yes it can slip in to some areas of attack but in most of our cases it is good old banter...or well deserved insults if a certain individual is calling out for it.

 

Niles is very well informed and will go to lengths to lay out his thoughts / opinion quite carefully and in detail so he is probably pointing you towards something he had previous said for a specific reason.

 

One slant I would put on it regards your comments concerning “consistent velocity and tone”. Many of us try to avoid that to certain extents as it is part of the desire to have subtle nuances to the feel and sound of a drum track and not end up sounding like a midi tracked drum machine (or possibly a machine gun style double pedal baseline which is probably one of our gripes with the “not so good" double peddler!s)

[cheddatom]

Don't take things personally Chedda (Tom?) - this place is good for lively debate and yes it can slip in to some areas of attack but in most of our cases it is good old banter...or well deserved insults if a certain individual is calling out for it.

 

Niles is very well informed and will go to lengths to lay out his thoughts / opinion quite carefully and in detail so he is probably pointing you towards something he had previous said for a specific reason.

 

One slant I would put on it regards your comments concerning “consistent velocity and tone”. Many of us try to avoid that to certain extents as it is part of the desire to have subtle nuances to the feel and sound of a drum track and not end up sounding like a midi tracked drum machine (or possibly a machine gun style double pedal baseline which is probably one of our gripes with the “not so good" double peddler!s)

 

Well it's obvious that I can read and I made no personal comments about anyone.

 

Like I said, no matter what your opinions are on production and drum sounds, listen to the radio.

[Dramatic Hammer]

jon where did you get it from?

 

A kid I used to teach drums to - I actually helped him buy it a few years ago for £400 !

 

The little bastard owed me £100 anyway, so I totally low-balled him and he oddly went for it !

[Niles]

niles, your opinion is wrong, because it is different from mine.

 

have you heard the work which was put into jambi?

no you wouldnt because your nutsack got in the way of your face.

My opinion is right because i r leet drummar n u suck.

 

What is my presumption? I have been in the studio with numerous drummers. A double kick is more consistent in velocity, and therefore in tone. It's a technical fact. Like I say, you may have your own ideas about production, but if you're in a rock band that's going to get radio play, all the kicks on your song have to be almost identical. When I say "have to be" obviously, this isn't a fact, but it is the predominant trend, and without a doubt, that is fact.

Have you ever heard any Mars Volta/Led Zeppelin? Single kick, very consistent sounding.

 

You asked (facetiously) if you had a communication disorder, or similar, I was answering equally facetiously, no offense intended.

 

The presumption is that every drummer should use a double. If the engineer feels that my kicking is too inconsistent I'll trigger the bass drum. The doubles I play (eg. Take the Veil, Cassandra Gemini II, Achilles Last Stand, Parabola) are quite consistent once I'm warmed up, they bring the beater usually to full extension, most of the time it hits the top of my foot.

 

in YOUR opinion

Oh so you recognize what an opinion is, now, when someone's challenging yours, but you'll happily spurt out some bile similar to that on the last page any other time.

 

I don't like the fact that quotes of me were lumped in with quotes from other people, and turned into one big rant. There was one reply reffering to your ability to put someone down. However, I think you were just putting down portnoy in relation to someone else's opinion.

...huh(@secondpart)? Ok, I'll put your name on your quotes.

 

I think we're talking about different things. If a drummer NEEDS a double kick to play a beat, then that says something about the beat. I'm not talking about beats, i'm talking about sound.

Because in that case the double IS a crutch. I always prefer to improve myself before my equipment.

 

So, yeh, why would you not buy a double kick if you had enough money?

See above. Even if I was an endorsing, touring, professional drummer I would still use a minimal kit (24 kick, 14,15,16 toms) with minimal cymbals (14 hats, 19,20 crashes, 22 ride), minimal effects (10,12 rototoms, LP vibra-slap and mounted tambourine) and minimal hardware (single pedal, regular hat stand and boom stands) because I would always prefer to improve my own technique, or find new way of producing the sounds I want from the equipment I have, to upgrading my kit. It's h4xcore too.

 

You know you're probably completely right about consistency etc. with the double, it's mostly my elitism that's my hang-up about them.

[cheddatom]

 

 

Have you ever heard any Mars Volta/Led Zeppelin? Single kick, very consistent sounding.

 

You asked (facetiously) if you had a communication disorder, or similar, I was answering equally facetiously, no offense intended.

It's presumptuous to assume I was being facetious :-p

 

Anyway, yeh, I love The Mars Volta etc, I do love it when you can hear all the expressiveness of a drummer. Like I say, it's not 100% of rock music that gets airplay, just like 90% ish. I'm all for jazz drummers etc, I love TOOL, I love drummer world. I'm just harking on about the (occasionally depressing) harsh realities of recorded commercial music.

 

You know you're probably completely right about consistency etc. with the double, it's mostly my elitism that's my hang-up about them.

 

Fair enough.

[ADAM]

all this shite about consistency....

 

perfect example - knights of cydonia is doubles played with a single pedal.

 

on record they're the same consistencey......live they are the same consistency and he doesn't use a bass drum trigger.

 

IIIII can play with the same consistancey. I dont play duduh and dont know of any single pedallers who do!?! ...Unless they've JUST started practicing doubles with one foot. In which case it's as niles suggested - a bit of practice to improve yourself and you're sorted.

 

Worked for me anyway!

[cheddatom]

I don't know anything about MUSE's latest music, i've really gone off them. I don't really want to argue about it, it's just from my experience (and we're talking tiny little details in the studio, watching drummers lots, listening lots) double kick double kicks, are more consistent than single kick double kicks, or triplets, or......

 

But, i've never recorded with you or Dom. It's cool to be less consistent anyway, it adds an expressive feel, like I said.

 

I haven't listened to the latest MUSE album, but I bet the kicks are processed beyond recognition to make them sound consistent. In a live situation, they will have shit loads of compression to attempt to acheive the same effect, but it won't be as consistent on CD.

[stakka]

Shame to hear you have gone off Muse Chedd...in one sense I can understand why...their last album has taken a bit of a detour but if you compare everything they have done over the years they continue to show quite a massive range of skill / styles / sounds and this is a major reason why they are so dam ****ing good and well liked, on top of proving they are not trying to slave to the pop / charts / masses. OK so Dom obviously had his hair done for the Brit awards last night but winning best live act says it all.

 

B.T.W. am not writing this to have a dig...just though it about time to mention the guys again in a positive light..well we are using their website !!!

 

And Adam..so wheres the KOC vid then you promised ? ha ha...perfect timing methinks seeing as we are all discussing single pedal consistency playing doubles Will the new TD3 be making an appearance in any way ?

 

Actually I think a bit of inconsistency in KOC pedal work will help to achieve that gallop effect !!!

[no3chris]

 

Oh so you recognize what an opinion is, now, when someone's challenging yours, but you'll happily spurt out some bile similar to that on the last page any other time.

 

 

 

what... like you do ?

[cheddatom]

Shame to hear you have gone off Muse Chedd...in one sense I can understand why...their last album has taken a bit of a detour but if you compare everything they have done over the years they continue to show quite a massive range of skill / styles / sounds and this is a major reason why they are so dam ****ing good and well liked, on top of proving they are not trying to slave to the pop / charts / masses. OK so Dom obviously had his hair done for the Brit awards last night but winning best live act says it all.

 

Heh, i'm not going to go on a very long ranting critique of MUSE and the direction they have gone in, apart from to say that I think Hullabuloo is the best thing they've done, B-sides, and live DVD. I don't think they'll ever top it. They lost all their energy making Absolution IMO. Maybe it is simply coincidental that when they start getting massive, raking in more cash, Bellamy puts less effort into his lyrics, adopts several cheesy singing styles, and the album is over produced to the extent of putting Britney Spears to shame. On the latest MUSE album there's even a Britney Spears cover. I've heard it on the radio.

 

Still, i think they're the best live band i've ever seen bar only TOOL. They deffinitely deserve all their awards/recognition/money.

 

 

EDIT: That was a small rant sorry. I'm so full of hubug! I shall shut it now as this is totally irrelevant to the thread and bound to annoy plenty of loyal fans.

[ADAM]

And Adam..so wheres the KOC vid then you promised ? ha ha...

 

ITS COMING!!!

 

i need to get a new pad from thomann (who take weeks to respond!)

 

and one of my cymbal pads internal wires has come off so i need to send it back!

 

so itll still be several weeks yet!

 

im as frustrated as you are!

[stakka]

Adam - Funny you should mention Thomann - I get a lot of kit from them and one day a set of Beyer headphones I got from them had a fault. They did take ages to respond (blaming the xmas rush) so I started a thread on dolbears drum forum saying I would let them know how Thomann perform, as the perils from buying abroad was a hot topic at the time. In the end I mended the earphones myself - it was a simple job in the end (but on a £100 set of earphones you don't expect it).

 

You can see the discussion thread on the link below. My saga is over but the reason I mention it is feel free to jump on that thread, let the guys (a good bunch of Drum forumists!) know about your issues but also if you want to threaten Thomann that their response performance is being scrutinised by a growing bunch of drummers / musicians etc if it helps to get them to react for you. Power to the people !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

http://www.mikedolbear.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35675

[ADAM]

Adam - Funny you should mention Thomann - I get a lot of kit from them and one day a set of Beyer headphones I got from them had a fault. They did take ages to respond (blaming the xmas rush) so I started a thread on dolbears drum forum saying I would let them know how Thomann perform, as the perils from buying abroad was a hot topic at the time. In the end I mended the earphones myself - it was a simple job in the end (but on a £100 set of earphones you don't expect it).

 

You can see the discussion thread on the link below. My saga is over but the reason I mention it is feel free to jump on that thread, let the guys (a good bunch of Drum forumists!) know about your issues but also if you want to threaten Thomann that their response performance is being scrutinised by a growing bunch of drummers / musicians etc if it helps to get them to react for you. Power to the people !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

http://www.mikedolbear.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35675

 

awesome. well i took the pad apart and had a look inside and theres a little black wire that has come disconnected from what i assume is the sensor.

 

Thing is - it wasnt soldered to it - but glued!

 

I want THEM to fix it because i dunno what im doing!

 

But yeah - ill check that out!

[stakka]

awesome. well i took the pad apart and had a look inside and theres a little black wire that has come disconnected from what i assume is the sensor.

 

Thing is - it wasnt soldered to it - but glued!

 

I want THEM to fix it because i dunno what im doing!

 

But yeah - ill check that out!

 

Glued not soldered eh ? Well there is a thing going round in manufacturing where a legal envioronmental move called ROHS compliance is forcing companies to do away with lead based materials and solder is one of them. Maybe thats the reason. Anyway best of luck with the repair...keep on to em.

 

Asking a bit of advice now Adam / Niles and any other hit hat stampers / stompers / tappers . Having progressed to exploring past playing fairly steady rhythms and even bringing in some heel toe work on the single bass pedal (the pedal choice of all good drummers ) I want to start bringing in working the hi hat with my left foot as a constant rhythm. It is starting to come on but got any advice there at all on technique ? - heel up or down, hat stand closer or further away, legs / feet position etc. I do find that I naturally start leaning back as both my feet are obviously pushing against me and then the back starts to complain. I have never had lessons (may do soon) so I may have all manner of issues that need addressing but any pointers on that would be great.

 

Thanks awfully !

[ADAM]

Glued not soldered eh ? Well there is a thing going round in manufacturing where a legal envioronmental move called ROHS compliance is forcing companies to do away with lead based materials and solder is one of them. Maybe thats the reason.

 

ORLY!

 

Anyway best of luck with the repair...keep on to em.

 

yeah I will do!

 

Having progressed to exploring past playing fairly steady rhythms and even bringing in some heel toe work on the single bass pedal (the pedal choice of all good drummers )

 

 

got any advice there at all on technique ? - heel up or down, hat stand closer or further away, legs / feet position etc. I do find that I naturally start leaning back as both my feet are obviously pushing against me and then the back starts to complain. I have never had lessons (may do soon) so I may have all manner of issues that need addressing but any pointers on that would be great.

 

Thanks awfully

 

you use the ball of your foot to make a 'chick' sound, and keep the heel down to make a 'swshh' sound.

 

Your thighs should be horizontal when youre playing the pedals.....and you should be able to reach the hats easily - so wherever you position it so it fulfils both of those, then youve positioned it well.

 

As for practicing with the hi hat in it - just start slow and work your way up. Do it every 1/4 note.....then every 1/8th note....and alternate to build up your technique!

 

but you know that anyway!

[Niles]

It's presumptuous to assume I was being facetious :-p

It would be presumptuous to presume you were being facetious, to assume you were being facetious is assumptuous, I suppose, if that's a word.

 

Heh, i'm not going to go on a very long ranting critique of MUSE and the direction they have gone in, apart from to say that I think Hullabuloo is the best thing they've done, B-sides, and live DVD. I don't think they'll ever top it. They lost all their energy making Absolution IMO. Maybe it is simply coincidental that when they start getting massive, raking in more cash, Bellamy puts less effort into his lyrics, adopts several cheesy singing styles, and the album is over produced to the extent of putting Britney Spears to shame. On the latest MUSE album there's even a Britney Spears cover. I've heard it on the radio.

I agree vigorously with every part of that.

 

I want to start bringing in working the hi hat with my left foot as a constant rhythm. It is starting to come on but got any advice there at all on technique ? - heel up or down, hat stand closer or further away, legs / feet position etc. I do find that I naturally start leaning back as both my feet are obviously pushing against me and then the back starts to complain. I have never had lessons (may do soon) so I may have all manner of issues that need addressing but any pointers on that would be great.

I position my hat pedal closer to me than the kick one. By resting my foot further up the foot board I get better control and you never really need to play the hats fast so there's no downside. Use your toes to control the state of the hats but use your heel/ball of foot to play them.

 

Start your hat foot going before the song starts then bring the rest of the limbs in and concentrate on not letting the hat rhythm falter, it's be natural (almost uncontrollable) after a week or so. The goal is to develop muscle memory of what that limb playing on the beat should feel like subconsciously, so lift your foot a couple of inches off the footboard and slam it down (very Dom-esque). A brilliant song for practicing this method is Shrinking Universe (one of Muse's best songs evar IMO). Dom's riding the china cymbal on the quarters and pedalling the hats on the eighths, it's a very textured ryhthm as every limb is doing something different but two (right foot and left hand) are on set-and-forget mode.

 

Once you've done that practice playing on the off beat, but not the on, subconsciously, good practice songs are:

Tell Me Baby - Red Hot Chili Peppers (easy)

Hysteria - Muse (moderate)

Bullet In The Head - Rage Against The Machine (hard)

 

Easy, moderate and hard are relative terms, they're all ridiculously simple songs.

 

If you're havig back problems get a throne with a backrest and always keep your back straight against it, this will also help if you feel like your pedalling is pusing against you because it'll just push into the backrest.

 

what... like you do ?

A bit, except you don't see me bitching about "opinions" on the very next page.

 

EDIT: Wait, nothing I said about Portnoy was an opinion; he can't groove or swing, instead he shreds. Anyone can play fast...

 

sorry i wasnt clear enough, i meant what StockholmSyndrome1973 said about niles not being 'rich enough'

 

poor point, when i see him post he always posts something that he's just bought of ebay...or going to buy

Huh? In the college I at I'm famously poor. I don't buy half that stuff because it gets too expensive. The only thing I've bought so far is a slingerland tom shell (which I'm selling), a Mapex Saturn drum kit (which I'm keeping) and a snare drum shell (which I'm keeping).

[cheddatom]

It would be presumptuous to presume you were being facetious, to assume you were being facetious is assumptuous, I suppose, if that's a word.

 

What's the difference between a presumption and an assumption?

 

Glad you agree with my MUSE=Britney Spears comment. Has anyone else noticed the Britney Spears cover on the latest album?

 

 

 

When I play drums, I always get a bad back, and I saw it mentioned in a post previously. Any tips?

[Lick My Face]

Glad you agree with my MUSE=Britney Spears comment. Has anyone else noticed the Britney Spears cover on the latest album?

 

Seeing as I don't listen to Britney Spears...no.

[ADAM]

Glad you agree with my MUSE=Britney Spears comment. Has anyone else noticed the Britney Spears cover on the latest album?

 

Yeah thats old news mate! I doubt that the guys listened to Britney and decided to make an alternate version, do you?

 

Seeing as I don't listen to Britney Spears...no.

 

 

When I play drums, I always get a bad back, and I saw it mentioned in a post previously. Any tips?

 

sit up straight. make sure that everything is within easy reach so you dont have to strian yourself.

[stakka]

Thanks Adam & Niles, that's helpful.

 

Having put in some practice I see where you are coming from and the most notable thing that is coming out is that if I lift my left foot up completely to play the hat (which works fine) I feel I have to keep my heel down on the right foot to give me something to anchor to the floor with. I prefer to play heel up on the right as well but I then have nothing grounded to the floor and then feel like I am almost swaying around !!...Maybe something to do with my crappy milking stool style throne so I have my eye on a decent one, but if you can spot anything else thanks just to let me know. I think some guidamce through some proper lessons would be in order, I've had a couple of years learning on my own and can have a good old thrash around and knock out some reasonable rythyms but I probably am missing many basics that would help me learn / progress faster.

[ADAM]

one quick 'practice' thing is wherever you are - at home/work/school/eating breakfast just do a simple RLRLRLRLRL in varying tempos with the balls of your feet - that way you get used to playing both pedals with the balls of your feet and you feel yourself balancing on your bum.

 

once you have RLRLRLR sorted - try doing different bass drum patterns but keep the left foot going on the ball of your foot.

 

you'll soon pick it up, and then playing with the balls of both feet will come naturally.

[DominicHoward]

or the other way round if you're left handed like me

[Bewilders]

one quick 'practice' thing is wherever you are - at home/work/school/eating breakfast just do a simple RLRLRLRLRL in varying tempos with the balls of your feet - that way you get used to playing both pedals with the balls of your feet and you feel yourself balancing on your bum.

 

once you have RLRLRLR sorted - try doing different bass drum patterns but keep the left foot going on the ball of your foot.

 

you'll soon pick it up, and then playing with the balls of both feet will come naturally.

Well said Adam.

[lpdrummer]

Sorry to bring this back up, but due to recent stupidity, this needs to be addressed.

 

I know it's possible, you didn't do that though, you knew it was already.

 

 

BS. Ludwig don't even make a mass produced mirror finish set. They don't make any wood drums with a mirror finish.

 

Here's how you can tell it's a Ludwig: it has Ludwig lugs and a Ludwig mount. End of story. The finish tells you nothing. In actuality it's not even a finish, it's the stainless steel shells.

 

 

Cymbals *can* and it can be told that the sticks aren't Pro-Mark.

 

 

Kindly don't presume to inform us of what we should and should not argue about.

 

Yes, I did know it was a Ludwig set. But even if I didn't, I could still tell. Bonham played many kits with a mirrored look. Hence I can assume its a Ludwig, then back up my point with looking at the hardware. Also, I will take a few pictures of some of the cymbals lying around my house. I expect you to sucessfully name brand, model, and diameter.

 

 

 

The only thing impressive about it is how much praise he (Mike Portnoy) can garner from teenaged degenerates. That and how he can manage to hit every single item on his nation-sized wank-kits in the course of a single song, and to hell with tastefulness. His drumming is mechanical and lifeless because he has no concept of groove or swing.

 

Technicality does not mean lack of musicality. Listen to Under a Glass Moon. Paradigm Shift. Or, since you seem to bemso big into Bonham, check out his Zeppelin tribute band, Hammer of the Gods.

 

 

And, my all time favorite quote:

 

ANYTHING YOU NEED A DOUBLE FOR DOES NOT SOUND GOOD.

 

 

Wow...just...wow. I am amazed at the ignorance of that statement.

 

Niles, I am utterly surprised at you. As someone from the PDF, you have limited, tunnel vision knowledge, and in the past few days managed to say some of the dumbest things. Seriously, if you are going to make accusations, have some knowledge of what you are attacking first.

 

Seeing as you seem to be the person who will go to great lengths just to say that only single pedaled, jazz/fusion/odd-time signatured drummers are the only good drummers, consider this - Vinnie Colauita uses double bass. Thomas Lang uses double bass. Neil Peart does too, and that is in a very musical setting.

 

Please read through what you have typed before typing, so we can have the benefit of not having to listen to your serious case of verbal diaheria.