Share your controversial Muse opinions II - More Radiohead talk

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

Yes, all this is true(except the last bit which I still don't agree with, if so, his head voice is both weak and sounds just like his falsetto, then what is the point?). But in no way does that mean that you can't have a powerful falsetto.

 

I never said you couldn't have a powerful falsetto all I said was that the vocals recorded by Bellamy were too powerful to be considered as falsetto. There is a point in KoC where he dips down to what would probably be considered falsetto (the second half of the opening vocalisations, before the lyric singing kicks in). But mostly it's head voice, and the treatment in post-production can make it seem more like falsetto because it distorts the true clean vocal.

[Hat]

I never said you couldn't have a powerful falsetto all I said was that the vocals recorded by Bellamy were too powerful to be considered as falsetto. There is a point in KoC where he dips down to what would probably be considered falsetto (the second half of the opening vocalisations, before the lyric singing kicks in). But mostly it's head voice, and the treatment in post-production can make it seem more like falsetto because it distorts the true clean vocal.

But, power has NO impact on the determination of however vocals are falsetto or head voice. Strain could be one, but still, it's just about how you use the voice, how much power you get out of it doesn't change anything.

 

But tell me then, if his vocals live are mostly falsetto, and the recordings sounds like falsetto because of the distortion, how can you tell that it's head voice? Because of the power? That gets us back to the point that you can't determine falsetto/head voice by the power.

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

But, power has NO impact on the determination of however vocals are falsetto or head voice. Strain could be one, but still, it's just about how you use the voice, how much power you get out of it doesn't change anything.

 

But tell me then, if his vocals live are mostly falsetto, and the recordings sounds like falsetto because of the distortion, how can you tell that it's head voice? Because of the power? That gets us back to the point that you can't determine falsetto/head voice by the power.

 

Because of the length of time he sustains when singing. Falsetto singing would be much shorter because he'd have to take more breaths more often.

[Hat]

Because of the length of time he sustains when singing. Falsetto singing would be much shorter because he'd have to take more breaths more often.

But we already know that Matt has really good breath support. It's not like Matt are doing high falsetto screams all the time. He usually has like one high scream per song that he holds for no longer than 5-8 seconds. The airy sound IS very noticeable during his high screams.

 

You also said that he did falsetto instead of head voice live to save his voice, but he holds these notes just as good as on record in most cases.

 

Am I just misunderstanding you? Because you are saying that he does falsetto live to save the voice, but also that his high notes are too powerful to be falsetto(notes that are just as powerful live as on record in a lot of cases).

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

But we already know that Matt has really good breath support. It's not like Matt are doing high falsetto screams all the time. He usually has like one high scream per song that he holds for no longer than 5-8 seconds. The airy sound IS very noticeable during his high screams.

 

You also said that he did falsetto instead of head voice live to save his voice, but he holds these notes just as good as on record in most cases.

 

Am I just misunderstanding you? Because you are saying that he does falsetto live to save the voice, but also that his high notes are too powerful to be falsetto(notes that are just as powerful live as on record in a lot of cases).

 

Example: Apocalypse Please.

 

On record, Bellamy sings "This is the end YEAAAHHH" and the YEEEEAAAHHHH sounds strong, powerful, not airy.

 

Live, when Bellamy does that same bit he falsettos the YEEEAAHHHH rather than sing at full power. That's where he tends to use falsetto on saving his voice. I never said at any point that he was using falsetto on the exact same songs we were discussing, merely that he uses falsetto more live in order to preserve his vocal chords.

 

ON RECORD, on Showbiz at the end, in Micro Cuts, and in the beginning of KoC, he is using head voice. There are probably many other songs where he uses head voice rather than falsetto, but you asked originally where Bellamy uses head voice, and those are the prime examples.

[Hat]

Example: Apocalypse Please.

 

On record, Bellamy sings "This is the end YEAAAHHH" and the YEEEEAAAHHHH sounds strong, powerful, not airy.

 

Live, when Bellamy does that same bit he falsettos the YEEEAAHHHH rather than sing at full power. That's where he tends to use falsetto on saving his voice. I never said at any point that he was using falsetto on the exact same songs we were discussing, merely that he uses falsetto more live in order to preserve his vocal chords.

 

ON RECORD, on Showbiz at the end, in Micro Cuts, and in the beginning of KoC, he is using head voice. There are probably many other songs where he uses head voice rather than falsetto, but you asked originally where Bellamy uses head voice, and those are the prime examples.

Yes, I know that Matt replaces a lot of strong notes with lighter falsetto ones. But we are talking about the HIGH notes. Like the ones in Showbiz, KoC and Micro Cuts. If that "YEAH" is even using his head voice(not sure, will have to listen again later), it is definitely a mix and uses a lot of chest, which is not what we are talking about. WE are discussing the high notes that uses the tops of the head and barely any, IF any, chest.

 

And like I said, how can you tell the difference? You said they sounded alike because of distortion, then how do you tell them apart? You said by the duration of the notes, which isn't true for any of these songs. To me these notes sounds just the same live as on record(except for KoC which is VERY hard to hear). I still don't get how you tell them apart.

 

The thing that started this argument was that you claimed his notes to be too powerful to be falsetto, which you have yet to explain.

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

Yes, I know that Matt replaces a lot of strong notes with lighter falsetto ones. But we are talking about the HIGH notes. Like the ones in Showbiz, KoC and Micro Cuts. If that "YEAH" is even using his head voice(not sure, will have to listen again later), it is definitely a mix and uses a lot of chest, which is not what we are talking about. WE are discussing the high notes that uses the tops of the head and barely any, IF any, chest.

 

And like I said, how can you tell the difference? You said they sounded alike because of distortion, then how do you tell them apart? You said by the duration of the notes, which isn't true for any of these songs. To me these notes sounds just the same live as on record(except for KoC which is VERY hard to hear). I still don't get how you tell them apart.

 

I wish I could explain it in terms you can understand, but clearly I cannot

 

To my ears, Bellamy is using head voice on the songs we discussed, on record. He is most likely using head voice for THOSE SAME SONGS live, but I can't be arsed with finding live recordings. I never said that he was using falsetto on those songs live, as opposed to on record. You came up with that connection purely because I mentioned Bellamy using falsetto to rest his vocal chords in certain parts. You made that connection, not me.

 

As far as I am concerned, Bellamy uses head voice on his records most of the time. His falsetto tends to sound lighter and airier, like the vocalisations at the end of Citizen Erased. That, to me, is Bellamy's falsetto. It sounds completely different to his high notes reached on Micro Cuts, at least it does to me. If you can't understand that then you never will, I'm so so sorry for you

[Hat]

I wish I could explain it in terms you can understand, but clearly I cannot

 

To my ears, Bellamy is using head voice on the songs we discussed, on record. He is most likely using head voice for THOSE SAME SONGS live, but I can't be arsed with finding live recordings. I never said that he was using falsetto on those songs live, as opposed to on record. You came up with that connection purely because I mentioned Bellamy using falsetto to rest his vocal chords in certain parts. You made that connection, not me.

 

As far as I am concerned, Bellamy uses head voice on his records most of the time. His falsetto tends to sound lighter and airier, like the vocalisations at the end of Citizen Erased. That, to me, is Bellamy's falsetto. It sounds completely different to his high notes reached on Micro Cuts, at least it does to me. If you can't understand that then you never will, I'm so so sorry for you

Yes, that was my fault. I blame lack of sleep at 5 am

 

Just because his falsetto sounds light and airy at some times doesn't mean it always has to. The falsetto is more than that. Statements such as "t's not really possible to scream without using the full force of the chest" are still unexplained and you can't really back up a statement like that. What is screaming? It's no different than any other thing you can do with your falsetto. If you have a powerful falsetto, it's VERY possible to "scream". And many artists do so, Robert Plant, Adam Lambert and Jeff Buckley are just a few of them.

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

Yes, that was my fault. I blame lack of sleep at 5 am

 

Just because his falsetto sounds light and airy at some times doesn't mean it always has to. The falsetto is more than that. Statements such as "t's not really possible to scream without using the full force of the chest" are still unexplained and you can't really back up a statement like that. What is screaming? It's no different than any other thing you can do with your falsetto. If you have a powerful falsetto, it's VERY possible to "scream". And many artists do so, Robert Plant, Adam Lambert and Jeff Buckley are just a few of them.

 

Ah well, nobody's perfect, eh

 

Debate on this can go on for years, quite a lot of music teachers still think falsetto is the same as head voice and the two terms are interchangeable. But I'll try.

 

To me, falsetto is a light and weak, almost keening, vocalisation. There is a point where as the singer puts more effort in, effectively turns the volume up, it becomes head voice. That's my generally understood definition of it, that falsetto is a weak vocalisation, hence the name falsetto..."false voice".

[Spectrum IV]

Debate on this can go on for years, quite a lot of music teachers still think falsetto is the same as head voice and the two terms are interchangeable.

 

Bingo! Subjective terminology strikes again. We could sit here arguing all day about the vocal tract configuration Bellamy is using (which I refer to as modes), but when the definition of a mode often changes from person to person, and the distinction between modes and register is usually not made... it seems a bit pointless.

 

For me at least, "head voice" is NOT a register, it's a mode within the falsetto register. But then, there is the falsetto mode, which has more air than head voice. Then you have to consider another common definition of head voice, which is taking the modal register above the break. Again, this usually varies depending on who you ask.

 

Bellamy's high notes are in the falsetto register whichever way you look at them. They have varying degrees of compression (excess airflow), mostly depending on range moreso than anything else; but the vibratory pattern is the same, thus the register has not changed. He is simply adding more compression as he ascends--or moving from falsetto mode to head voice.

 

Compression and volume go hand-in-hand. It's simply not possible to sing an airy tone at powerful volumes... that's forcing. But compression and range are also linked; it's difficult to compress the falsetto register on the lower notes, while as you get higher it becomes necessary to avoid damaging the voice.

 

Anyway, I'm tired, and some of this probably isn't even relevant. I'll add more later.

[Hat]

Ah well, nobody's perfect, eh

 

Debate on this can go on for years, quite a lot of music teachers still think falsetto is the same as head voice and the two terms are interchangeable. But I'll try.

 

To me, falsetto is a light and weak, almost keening, vocalisation. There is a point where as the singer puts more effort in, effectively turns the volume up, it becomes head voice. That's my generally understood definition of it, that falsetto is a weak vocalisation, hence the name falsetto..."false voice".

Okay, now I'll try to do this without my pissy 4-5 am mood.

 

That is your definition, fine. But I'm pretty sure that the "false voice" refers to the tone, not strength

Bingo! Subjective terminology strikes again. We could sit here arguing all day about the vocal tract configuration Bellamy is using (which I refer to as modes), but when the definition of a mode often changes from person to person, and the distinction between modes and register is usually not made... it seems a bit pointless.

 

For me at least, "head voice" is NOT a register, it's a mode within the falsetto register. But then, there is the falsetto mode, which has more air than head voice. Then you have to consider another common definition of head voice, which is taking the modal register above the break. Again, this usually varies depending on who you ask.

 

Bellamy's high notes are in the falsetto register whichever way you look at them. They have varying degrees of compression (excess airflow), mostly depending on range moreso than anything else; but the vibratory pattern is the same, thus the register has not changed. He is simply adding more compression as he ascends--or moving from falsetto mode to head voice.

 

Compression and volume go hand-in-hand. It's simply not possible to sing an airy tone at powerful volumes... that's forcing. But compression and range are also linked; it's difficult to compress the falsetto register on the lower notes, while as you get higher it becomes necessary to avoid damaging the voice.

 

Anyway, I'm tired, and some of this probably isn't even relevant. I'll add more later.

""head voice" is NOT a register, it's a mode within the falsetto register" Really? I have never heard it been described as that before, it has always been the opposite(of people even say there IS a difference). Chest vs Head voice depends on where the sound resonates from, right? The falsetto is a tone of the head register, which is why its got the name "false", because of the way it sounds. It's called head voice because it resonates from the head. It just seems confusing to use the "Head voice" term as anything else than the definition of voice that resonates from the head, unless you are saying that falsetto can be done without the head voice.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Tjet

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

Falsetto can be done in chest voice as well, for example Marilyn Monroe. Falsetto can be done on most notes, but head voice generally tops out at a higher level than falsetto can.

[Hat]

Falsetto can be done in chest voice as well, for example Marilyn Monroe. Falsetto can be done on most notes, but head voice generally tops out at a higher level than falsetto can.

Can you give me an example where he does this?

 

And once again, your definition of a falsetto makes it IMPOSSIBLE for it to be stronger than head voice, since by your definition, when a falsetto becomes strong and high it becomes head voice.

 

By the standard(most used) definition of falsetto, it's much easier to reach high notes, since falsetto requires a lot less strain and tension(not saying that tension is bad).

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

Can you give me an example where he does this?

 

And once again, your definition of a falsetto makes it IMPOSSIBLE for it to be stronger than head voice, since by your definition, when a falsetto becomes strong and high it becomes head voice.

 

By the standard(most used) definition of falsetto, it's much easier to reach high notes, since falsetto requires a lot less strain and tension(not saying that tension is bad).

 

Where who does what?

[Hat]

Where who does what?

"Falsetto can be done in chest voice as well, for example Marilyn Monroe"

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

"Falsetto can be done in chest voice as well, for example Marilyn Monroe"

 

I wasn't talking about Muse, it was a general point that falsetto isn't a vocal register

[Hat]

I wasn't talking about Muse, it was a general point that falsetto isn't a vocal register

For some reason I read that as Marilyn Manson. Goddamnit.

 

Give me an example of when SHE does this. I never said falsetto is a vocal register. It is a tone of the HEAD register, and impossible to create with the chest voice. The falsetto isn't a part of the modal/full voice. Try singing a chest note, and then going up to falsetto without breaking. You may be able to hide it well, but it IS physically impossible. At least by the standard definition of what a falsetto is.

[Obi]

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

For some reason I read that as Marilyn Manson. Goddamnit.

 

Give me an example of when SHE does this. I never said falsetto is a vocal register. It is a tone of the HEAD register, and impossible to create with the chest voice. The falsetto isn't a part of the modal/full voice. Try singing a chest note, and then going up to falsetto without breaking. You may be able to hide it well, but it IS physically impossible. At least by the standard definition of what a falsetto is.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha3Pyt4wsGA

 

Falsetto isn't confined to the head voice register, falsetto occurs when the vocal chords are open and allowing lots of air through. The Bee Gees used both Falsetto and head voice as well. Compare "How Deep Is Your Love" with something like "Tragedy". The former is sung with falsetto, the latter head voice. The difference is quite obvious.

 

Like I said though, even trained vocal coaches think falsetto is the same as head voice because that's what they were taught. There IS no accepted standard definition of falsetto, mainly because of the way it's been taught over the years. I mean, it was taught that men singing above chest voice were using falsetto whereas women singing above chest voice were using head voice, which is a fallacy.

 

Most high notes are the result of vocal chord adduction, which is a factor in head voice. The type of vocal chord vibration that produces the falsetto voice precludes loud singing except in the highest tones of that register; it also limits the available tone colors because of the simplicity of its waveform.

 

If you don't accept my own understanding and explanation then fine, give me your understanding of what falsetto is and the difference between it and head voice

[Hat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha3Pyt4wsGA

 

Falsetto isn't confined to the head voice register, falsetto occurs when the vocal chords are open and allowing lots of air through. The Bee Gees used both Falsetto and head voice as well. Compare "How Deep Is Your Love" with something like "Tragedy". The former is sung with falsetto, the latter head voice. The difference is quite obvious.

 

Like I said though, even trained vocal coaches think falsetto is the same as head voice because that's what they were taught. There IS no accepted standard definition of falsetto, mainly because of the way it's been taught over the years. I mean, it was taught that men singing above chest voice were using falsetto whereas women singing above chest voice were using head voice, which is a fallacy.

 

Most high notes are the result of vocal chord adduction, which is a factor in head voice. The type of vocal chord vibration that produces the falsetto voice precludes loud singing except in the highest tones of that register; it also limits the available tone colors because of the simplicity of its waveform.

 

If you don't accept my own understanding and explanation then fine, give me your understanding of what falsetto is and the difference between it and head voice

My definition of falsetto is as you say, open vocal chords with lots of air. But it is still a sound of the head voice, otherwise it's just airy chest voice. There is no denying that there IS a break between what I call the full voice and the falsetto. How do you explain this break?

 

Do you sing yourself? Any trained singer will tell you that you can go up in head voice(sound resonates from head) without breaking from the chest. You agree with this. This is also why you can mix the two, because of the chest connection that you can use. But when you try to go into falsetto, there is a clear break in the voice, it IS not physically possible to go into what Matt does in for example the ending of CE without breaking from the chest voice. There is no connection. You said yourself that this is falsetto, how do you explain this break in the voice?

 

When I go higher in the falsetto, the vocal chords will tighten up, yes, but I am still using all of it, compared to head voice where the chords close up entirely(not all the way up ofc). This is the main difference.

As explained in this video.

 

By that definition, yes, in a way he always uses head voice for the high notes, because the sound resonates from the head, but it is still falsetto, because of the way the chord closes. You have said before that the voice closes up and the "hole" is smaller for head voice. I agree with this, but what I am saying is that you can reach high notes by just making the chord tighter.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Tjet

[WutDaFucksy]

Gosh this debate is so controversial.

 

 

 

Shine (both versions) are overrated

[Joseph.]

I'd have sex with Marilyn Monroe (When she was in her prime, not dead)

this is relevant because she was posted.

 

Trying to sing falsetto worsened my respiratory infection

 

also HT&ILY is awful

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

We're probably both right, and we're probably both wrong. I still think Bellamy sings in head voice on record more than he does falsetto. Sippe is entitled to think differently as is his right. I think we've exhausted any discussion now and will go tound in circles.

[Hat]

I was just gonna suggest that we drop it

 

I should probably eat breakfast...

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

I was just gonna suggest that we drop it

 

I should probably eat breakfast...

 

It's just a pity I spelt "round" with a t