Neil. Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Hello Kittahs, So this is a really random one. I'm working on my end of year uni project, and it's a beast of a project. It's a purpose built recording studio. Quick run through of facilities include: 2 open planned lounges 3 6m x 6m conditioned practice rooms 2 offices 1 purpose built recording studio (complete with stone room, iso booths etc etc) various balconies, decks etc etc etc. ANYWAY, I know there's a good few people here that are in bands, record etc etc, so i'm looking for photos of 2 things specifically, if anyone has them. 1. Photos of your practice space. I'm just trying to get an idea of what's usually in them, how they're kitted out etc etc. If this is your garage, that's a start. If it's in a specific place where you rent out a room, even better. And if your gear etc is in the photo, as per your usual setup, that helps me even more!! 2. Photos of parts of the studio. This could be anything from the isolation booth, to the machine room. It's all relevant, and helps me make a better design. Any help on this is greatly appreciated. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 That's an interesting project, this is for architecture yeh? this is a cool thread about a guy doing up his studio. There are some links in there to some very impressive builds. In the case of rehersal spaces, they're generally shit, even when you pay, so i'm not sure looking at existing spaces is that useful. I posted pics of my place a while back anyway. I think the worst problem in rehersal spaces are the parallel walls and shit PAs. Oh, also, I guess you've done loads of acoustic research? If not you'll need to. I cman't remember the name of the text I had at uni but that was ace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil. Posted April 19, 2011 Author Share Posted April 19, 2011 Hmmm... Interesting. yah it's for architecture. It's in a really cool site. Basically marshland with tonnes of these 3m high reeds. The groundfloor is semi-transparent and the top floor is totally enclosed in black polished concrete. Anyway, the groundfloor has the 3 practice rooms. The smallest is 5m x 5m, but the corners are all chamfered, and it's treated with accoustic panneling (It's a tripple-leaf wall, so you can adjust the accoustics a little). The middle one is 5m x 8m (same technology) and then the biggest one is 5m x 12m. they all open out onto the main lounge, which is about 5m x 21m, and has a massive, full height, full length window wall, that also completely opens up. I would imagine that if bands have the option to rent a practice space, if it's well kitted out, and in a really cool place, they'd probably book it again. That's my theory anyway Then the top floor is just the studio and the semi-private lounge for the studio. On of my biggest concerns is accoustics. Obviously, making the walls massively thick is the normal way of doing accoustic isolation, but I was working with one of my lecturers and we came up with another detail, so the walls aren't as thick. It's to have a vacuum within the wall. I wont get into the technical side of things, but it saves me a fuck load of space considering the wall thickness went from like >1m to >0.5m. Anyway, that's all technical shite. I doubt a lot of the lecturers will have the technical accoustic background, but it's good to have the answers when they ask you why walls are chamfered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 making the studio upstairs totally isolated from the practise rooms upstairs is a bastard! How are you doing that? I agree, bands would go back to a space if it was as cool as you describe, but for any studio like that to make money they'd be charging ridiculous prices for practise rooms. I doubt you have to consider that though. It'd be cool to go really weird with the shape of the live and control rooms, and have that influence the shape of the lounge. Justify the shapes with acoustic theory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil. Posted April 19, 2011 Author Share Posted April 19, 2011 making the studio upstairs totally isolated from the practise rooms upstairs is a bastard! How are you doing that? One of the lecturers in my course actually has some accousitic background. Accoustic Engineering is more on the Engineering side of construction, rather than Architecture. We make the building look pretty, they make it work (and they hate us for doing that.) ANYWAY, the technique is usually called "box within a box." The main parts of the studio are completely isolated by a combination of vacuum walls and normal thick walls. (so the 2 isolation booths, live room, control room, mixing room and machine room are in one big "vacuum box") Then out side of that vacuum box, there's an isolation corridoor (done the usual way, 1.2m thick accoustically insulated walls) and then that comes out onto a landing where there's a stairs, and then a door out onto the studio lounge and balcony. I might have to change that plan around a bit, but that's essentially it. Although the Vacuum Box idea is majorly expensive, you could effectively isolate each room from the next, if you wanted. I agree, bands would go back to a space if it was as cool as you describe, but for any studio like that to make money they'd be charging ridiculous prices for practise rooms. I doubt you have to consider that though. It'd be cool to go really weird with the shape of the live and control rooms, and have that influence the shape of the lounge. Justify the shapes with acoustic theory! Yah we don't have to worry about costs or maintenance or any of that. It's great at this stage, but a bitch in the real world. As for wierd shapes, I'm one of those architects that believes that curves belong on F1 circuits and girls, not in architecture. I haven't had a curve in my buildings since 1st year, and i failed that project. They're generally pretty angular buildings with me. it's kinda like this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 that looks ace! Yeh it was called "a room within a room" on my course. Some times they hang an entire room by wires, which I think is a more effective method of isolation than most others, but obviously the practicalities mean it's not done very often. Getting a vacum in between rooms is a good idea that was never suggested to me. Maybe 'cos it's very hard to do? I've never heard of it before. You could probably do some cool stuff with bass traps too - work out what dimensions you need, then turn them into features rather than just necessities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil. Posted April 19, 2011 Author Share Posted April 19, 2011 The problem with vacuums is that they're so fucking tricky to work with. Just like magnets, no1 really knows how to work them. Fortunately, with architecture, if i go to present my project and say "well i came up with an entirely unique wall detail, that works on scientific principles" its a seriously good reflection on your research, even if in reality it would be prohibitively difficult to build/maintain. That's the engineers problem. If it was being built for real, I would work with an accoustic engineer to use bass traps etc as features, but in reality, my tutors are more concerned with things like how it connects to the site, and how I deal with flooding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Has anyone done a vacuum wall before?. Show us some pictures when you're done anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil. Posted April 19, 2011 Author Share Posted April 19, 2011 I cant seem to find any examples of where it has been done, but i've been told it has. I've about 2 and a half weeks left on this project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell_A Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 I cant seem to find any examples of where it has been done, but i've been told it has. I've about 2 and a half weeks left on this project. Seriously man... Google is your friend. Result 1 Result 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowella Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Only thing I can add is experience from my practice room. Sorry I can't provide much on it. Called The Studio. Ironoically. http://www.myspace.com/the_studio_newcastle It's built inside an abandoned warehouse as a separate entity so it's esentially a building within a building. It has a lobby with a snooker table and TV on entrance with some basic provisions at the table, such as earplugs and mics for hire. I've only gone into the practice rooms at the studio but i can say you can accomodate about 5 people in there comfortably. It's all themed nicely in red, soundproofed very well, air conditioned individually and has a small PA system for Mic setup. Got some couches too while you lay back waiting for drummers to show up. Also, wider doors to accomodate gear. It's a very good mood setting environment and I think the old band photo was taken there too. It's near a train line and you wouldn't even guess that there is a train and two other bands around you while you practice. It has a good vibe to it that makes you feel welcome. I could picture myself writing an album there. Storage rooms are provided if you don't want to haul your gear back and forth from the studio. Hint that idea. It's really practical for me at times considering it's 100km from where I live (yes, I drive/train it that far for a band and Uni) Costs us $40 for two hours. We have good contact with them but we only use the space for rehersals, usually the night prior to a gig. You poor soul though, having to work with a little bit of engineering. You wonder why we all hate you architect bastards while I sit here with a fucking calculator, cursing your existance while trying to make your dreams become a reality Also going to say, carrying equpiment upstairs is a bitch. Try going up 5 stories with a full band kit for a gig in a crowded bar in Sydney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil. Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 Seriously man... Google is your friend. Result 1 Result 2 No offense, but that's insulting. I'm going to have to go out of my way to explain this. What you showed me is two types of insulation that is packed into a wall cavity to reduce heat loss. The first is where the material is vacuum treated. Unfortunately, it's still pretty poor at heat insulation by comparison to some other materials floating about. The second, cavity wall construction, is the reason ireland is in a recession. Kudos for pointing that out. Now, a simple experiment. Put a speaker in a bell jar, turn it up. you can hear it outside the belljar. Evacuate that jar, you can't hear anything. Sound vibrations cannot pass through a vacuum. For the architecture part, imagine that you take a cavity wall construction. Typically, in a domestic dwelling, this might be packed with rockwool, kingspan, or the stuff you posted. In accoustics, this might be some sort of rubber layer, or egg crate foam, to absorb the vibrations. My theory was to use evacuated pannels (similar to the bell jar experiment) so vibrations wouldn't even pass from the inner leaf of the wall to the outer leaf. Google all that, do a few years of architecture, or architecture technology, then give me a shout. Only thing I can add is experience from my practice room. Sorry I can't provide much on it. Called The Studio. Ironoically. http://www.myspace.com/the_studio_newcastle It's built inside an abandoned warehouse as a separate entity so it's esentially a building within a building. It has a lobby with a snooker table and TV on entrance with some basic provisions at the table, such as earplugs and mics for hire. I've only gone into the practice rooms at the studio but i can say you can accomodate about 5 people in there comfortably. It's all themed nicely in red, soundproofed very well, air conditioned individually and has a small PA system for Mic setup. Got some couches too while you lay back waiting for drummers to show up. Also, wider doors to accomodate gear. It's a very good mood setting environment and I think the old band photo was taken there too. It's near a train line and you wouldn't even guess that there is a train and two other bands around you while you practice. It has a good vibe to it that makes you feel welcome. I could picture myself writing an album there. Storage rooms are provided if you don't want to haul your gear back and forth from the studio. Hint that idea. It's really practical for me at times considering it's 100km from where I live (yes, I drive/train it that far for a band and Uni) Costs us $40 for two hours. We have good contact with them but we only use the space for rehersals, usually the night prior to a gig. You poor soul though, having to work with a little bit of engineering. You wonder why we all hate you architect bastards while I sit here with a fucking calculator, cursing your existance while trying to make your dreams become a reality Also going to say, carrying equpiment upstairs is a bitch. Try going up 5 stories with a full band kit for a gig in a crowded bar in Sydney Box within a box is often used for refurbs. That's pretty cool that they put it in a warehouse though! Id say you could do some crazy architectural features in that case! I definitely need to add in a bit more storage. Might be good to put them beside the practice rooms, so you dont have to carry stuff far, and it would also allow access from the office. Cheers for reminding me though! I'll also see if i can work in more soft surfaces. Right now it's mostly concrete, glass and steel, but it's a really soft surrounding (reeds, and 8m from a river). As for engineers, I know how much you guys hate us. I wont lie, we're assholes! But some of us have an idea of what your life is like. That's why this building cantilevers 6m (supported by a previous 12m), as opposed to some other designs i've seen. 18m glass cantilever with no columns. Yeah right. This is only a 2 storey building, so i'd imagine 1 lift / 1 stairs (excluding fire provisions) would be ok for gear? Cheers for the help though. Gotta rethink some stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell_A Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 What I was doing was trying to help. I know what you meant and I sent an email to a lecturer asking if it could be done. The general response is that It would be possible. But extremely hard to maintain, manufacture and make financially viable. By all means. Talk down to someone doing engineering at university as hey! They didn't give you the resources on a plate.... But I'm sure your course isn't a cake walk either, and therefore expect that any ideas should be followed through by proper research via multiple medium. The vibrations from the room would still vibrate through the building despite the vacuum. The only way to do that properly is to have glass walls with double/triple glazing as that would be viable structurally. But think again. If you hear a sound from outside in a "normal" house with double glazing. You don't hear the sound louder through the wall, with the insulation you turn your nose up at. But through the double glazing with the vacuum. Or are there special windows over in Ireland? I don't know, I could do research, or you could tell me, at which my response would be to belittle you and tell you to do a few years of engineering, or a proper degree, then give me a shout... I have followed all forum rules except rules one, which you have also broken, both now, and with my previous ban. Six, where reporting a mod to another mod is useless. I have not however broken rule seven as I have not argued publicly about any "decision". This will be my last post on this forum. A certain mod, who I cannot name for fear of breaking the rules, has previously banned me for no good reason and publicly belittles a forum user that tries to help him. I am not leaving for any other reason. I have no gripe with other members on the forum. It's sad that i'm taking this to extremes but when I can no longer help another forum member or advertise the sale of an item (The reason for my previous ban. Not however the "multiple accounts" or "Ignoring moderator warnings" Other mods can check this [not breaking rule seven as this is a statement not an argument],) Shakespeare: "A person is remembered for his entrances and exits." If this holds true. What a shit memory... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimboMansonMB-1 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Edit: On topic, NeilDOT this looks like an awesome project I like the illustration particularly, wish I could be of help with the tech aspects! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impulse 101 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I've got more but this is a good example of some of my studio time. JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimboMansonMB-1 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Look at some of Muse's "Making Of"s? Fanboi, I know, but they get some pretty neat studio shots in there, I've learnt a lot about the recording process, etc. from watching them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musecam123 Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Look at some of Muse's "Making Of"s? Fanboi, I know, but they get some pretty neat studio shots in there, I've learnt a lot about the recording process, etc. from watching them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil. Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 Russell, chill out! take things with a pinch of salt. If you're going to be so smart and tell me to google things, it might be worth my while if the results are relevant, which they really were not. I have no problem with thermal insulation, but in physics, sound cannot pass through a vacuum. That was my effort in designing part of the building. If the room is totally suspended by some sort of tricky structural system, the vibrations would be next to nothing. thermal vacuum pannels are for thermal protection, and vibrations go through them about as good as steel. Tripple glazing is no use either cos it goes through the frame, has argon in the middle, and at high vacuum levels, the glass bends and makes contact in the middle. Trust me, I've researched this to fuck. Chill out. No need to over react. If I over reacted every time someone whammy'd me in KnT, I'd have left a long time ago. JT those are fucking awesome. (and not just for the gear pron!) They look like canvas pannels they use for accoustics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 the canvas is covering absorbant material, most likely rockwool. I think Russell has a point - How could you possibly create a vacuum between two rooms, and retain isolation? There has to be some sort of structure connecting the two, and this will transfer vibrations. You mention "egg crates" - this is normally used for acoustic treatment inside studios as it reflects (or is it refracts?) sound around, hopefully dispersing it, the opposite of a reflective flat wall. For absorption you'd generally want something a bit more chunky and the surface can be totally flat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don'tPostThePear Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 JT those are fucking awesome. (and not just for the gear pron!) They look like canvas pannels they use for accoustics? if you refer to hat stuff on the walls, those should be some kind of sound absorbing material so once the sound came out of the source (like a cabinet) and reached the wall, those things should absorb the sound so it won't bounce off the walls and going insane in the room. basically they are against room reverb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil. Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 the canvas is covering absorbant material, most likely rockwool. I think Russell has a point - How could you possibly create a vacuum between two rooms, and retain isolation? There has to be some sort of structure connecting the two, and this will transfer vibrations. You mention "egg crates" - this is normally used for acoustic treatment inside studios as it reflects (or is it refracts?) sound around, hopefully dispersing it, the opposite of a reflective flat wall. For absorption you'd generally want something a bit more chunky and the surface can be totally flat. I understand the difficulty of it, but it's not impossible. If you had a pre-vacuumed pannel preformed offsite, and made to specific measurements, it could be done, and then just the joints and frames treated with something like rubber or rockwool. Basically like making a giant thermos flask. I though egg crate was for sound absorbtion? I was always taught that hard surfaces reflect sound (increase reverb) and soft materials absorb sound (decrease reverb). what about those movable accoustic pannels? are they any good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 yeh they are made of foam to aid absorbtion which makes them better than a diffuser made of wood, for example (given the same surface pattern/texture/bumps). The shape is for diffusion. Those acoustic panels - just rock wool in a wooden frame with fabric covering, are pretty good at absorbing. You can see the different absorption characteristics of most materials by frequency on the web. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil. Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 ah i see. So would it be better, for example, to have a fairly hard surfaced room with movable accoustic pannels then? That seems to be the most flexible option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 the surface can be hard as long as it has a diffusive (is that a word?) shape. The sound has to dissipate as it hits the walls. You can have wooden walls as long as they're not too flat etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil. Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 that could be pretty cool to texture the walls like that. cheers tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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