Cheddatom's Studio

[cheddatom]

yeh, good point, I guess I'll have to aim for £15/hr at the moment otherwise i'm not competing with local guys.

 

As soon as I have my location sorted I'll start a website and post some more info. Depending on the location it might have rehearsal rooms as well, which would help me scrape through the first year.

[haze015]

I was actually talking about something like this with someone recently!

 

The more quality, high end gear you can get your hands on, the better, as this will provide a draw for other services you can offer, such as mixing and mastering.

 

Look at getting some AKG C414s (And U87s, but at £2k a pop...), then look into more specialist microphones. C414s are useful everywhere basically and everything else will just be there to provide something a bit different.

 

 

I'm interested in how much people would be prepared to pay for mixing as I'm trying to gain more experience there and tired of only having my own stuff to work with.

[Assassin231]

How much would you pay for a 10 hour studio session, if the engineer promised "professional results"?

It depends on many factors in my opinion - the equipment, the quality of the live space available, the experience of the engineer and reputation of the studio. I would like to think around £350-400 for an average 'high quality' studio with a nice live room and plenty of space for bands to get creative. However, realistically I would say around £250-300 in order to attract more business in general and encourage local clients to use the studio on a more regular basis.

How many songs do you think you can get to "professional standard" in one 10 hour session?

Again, from personal experience it is down to two main factors - the way in which the music will be tracked and how tight the band are. If you want a really solid recording and don't want to be editing for a week after tracking then you are looking for a band that are well rehearsed - even then I would allow a good 2 hours minimum for complete setup, patching, testing the lines, soundchecking/phase and getting it sounding very good on the way in. I think 2 tracks would be a push in 10 hours if you wanted a professional result with plenty of takes to choose from and to get the song 'nailed' by the performers and as an engineer.

How far would you travel for a studio? What would motivate you... price or quality/reputation?

Price is a big motivator - but the motivation for me would really come down to space to set up a few different environments and experient with sounds - if your still writing little overdubs and parts. If you are completely rehearsed and want to get on to it I guess for me it would be down to the live room, the pres/outboard/converters and having loads of little shitty effects to play with.

Do you have prejudices about particular equipment/software and would this be a determining factor when chosing your studio?

I think theres a very fine line between having what you need for professional results and just being a complete gearslut. If you have a good player behind a nice, tuned kit in a nice live room with decent microphones positioned well, decent pre amplification and good converters then you have everything you need. Personally, I believe you can make fantastic music with very little equipment - Bon Iver is a really good example of the whole low end theory thing - I remember reading his first album was done with just a macbook, an mbox and a 57...

[cheddatom]

Thanks for the new replies... I've been so busy trying to find the right premesis and still got nowhere

 

I would love a couple of C414s but just can't afford that at the moment. I need to spend what money I have on the location, soundproofing, and the look of the place.

 

I've been in a pro studio all weekend. This is the place that anyone with any money goes to locally. I have to admit that the gear is very impressive - a gorgeous mic collection, and some very nice amps. However, it didn't put me off at all. I feel that I can do at least as good a job with the equipment I have currently.

 

One thing I noticed is that he tracks everything through compressors on the way into the box. He has a rack full of compressors set how he likes them and uses one on everything he records. Personally I'd find this very restrictive when I got to mix down... what if the attack on the kick was too fast for that particular drum, but I couldn't tell until I'd got the bass down? I guess it comes down to experience, which he has a shit load of, and he does get great results with this method.

 

So yeh, the one negative for me was that I generally take a lot longer to get a good sound that he does... any thoughts on that?

[Dramatic Hammer]

I think tracking everything through compressors is a hangover from analogue recording mediums where you're worrying about noise floors (so want everything hot but not peaking) and therefore pretty unnecessary these days. On the other hand, it does mean you've instantly got something that sounds ok without tweaking and can move on to the next instrument/song.

 

I don't know about you but I like/have to mix during the recording as I have no outboard at all

[cheddatom]

Yeh, this guy was tracking to tape for 20 years I think... proper old school. I do everything in the box too. Thinking about it, do you think you need a rack full of pretty outboard to make the studio seem professional?

 

If I can just create template sessions to start up with compressors on every channel, it's basically the same, except I'm not stuck with anything I can't change after.

[Dramatic Hammer]

Yeh, this guy was tracking to tape for 20 years I think... proper old school. I do everything in the box too. Thinking about it, do you think you need a rack full of pretty outboard to make the studio seem professional?

 

If I can just create template sessions to start up with compressors on every channel, it's basically the same, except I'm not stuck with anything I can't change after.

 

Maybe just put whatever you do have on prominent display, even if it's completely irrelevant

 

I think one or two external might be nice as they can change the performance to an extent but yeah, some preset channel templates would solve the speed issues...

[cheddatom]

hah, yeh, I need a couple of those rack tuners that have a demo mode for the lights... that should do the trick

[haze015]

So yeh, the one negative for me was that I generally take a lot longer to get a good sound that he does... any thoughts on that?

 

Why do you think it takes you longer?

 

 

Regarding a template with plugins on, wouldn't do that when you're tracking as it can cause timing issues later down the line. Could turn off plugin delay compensation I guess, but that could make the problem worse?

[cheddatom]

I'll be monitoring direct from the desk while recording so latency won't be an issue. I think that's what you meant?

 

I'm just thinking a template file with all the channels set up for a drum mix as I like it would save a lot of time.

 

The reason I think it would take me longer than pro dude with 30 years of experience is that I tend to take a little longer positioning mics, and I have to add and set all my compressors in the box, after tracking, rather than using outboard on the way in.

[Don'tPostThePear]

I'll be monitoring direct from the desk while recording so latency won't be an issue. I think that's what you meant?

 

I'm just thinking a template file with all the channels set up for a drum mix as I like it would save a lot of time.

 

The reason I think it would take me longer than pro dude with 30 years of experience is that I tend to take a little longer positioning mics, and I have to add and set all my compressors in the box, after tracking, rather than using outboard on the way in.

 

i am about 99% sure that no pro compresses drums during tracking

also outboard is a bigger pain in the ass than plugins

[Jaicen]

I know a fair few old time pro's that will track with compressors and all manner of outboard to tape.

The point is that if you have the sound you want, print it now and you won't waste time tweaking it later. With drums, it's very common to have a slow compressor on the kick and to compress during tracking. Recording in the box with comps on all channels will just use up your CPU. If you have quality outboard comps, use them for tracking, then they're free for use during mixing too.

 

I like to track vocals through a nice compressor, 1176 where available, but usually at a very tame setting. Usually 1.5 - 2:1 at around -20dB which means it won't kick in unless the singer is really pushing.

I almost always track bass through a limiter for obvious reasons, again, at a high threshold.

[haze015]

I'll be monitoring direct from the desk while recording so latency won't be an issue. I think that's what you meant?

 

Not really.

 

If you were to record drums, then say guitar after. If you start adding plugins to the drums before you record guitar, then what the guitar plays along to will be ever so slightly delayed. If you were to decide you wanted a different compressor or EQ or whatever, this will cause the guitar to move slightly out of time. If you were using a linear phase EQ and change the settings or remove it completely, the latency involved can be quite extreme.

 

Most plugins don't create latency of any significance, but its still something to consider.

[cheddatom]

i am about 99% sure that no pro compresses drums during tracking

 

Trust me, this dude is a pro

 

Not really...Most plugins don't create latency of any significance, but its still something to consider.

 

Yeh, good call

 

I guess I could do with a couple of rack comps then, not just to save time but to avoid any latency problems

 

Looking at a DBX266XL at the moment. Not sure what else I can afford on a budget

[cheddatom]

OK, I was in a potential premises last night with my new sound level meter. The live room is about 10M square (although not exactly square I don't have the right measurements) and the loudest noises are from a passing train, and from a rehearsal space below the building (but not directly below the potential live room). The readings on my sound level meter at the loudest times were:

 

A weighting 60db

C weighting 72db

 

is this too much for a recording studio? How much would I need to reduce this by?

 

(I'm looking at you Jaicen )

[Jaicen]

Really, you should be using A-Weighting, though it's only really valid for sounds around 40dB for reasons i'm not even going into right now!

 

I would look somewhere else to be honest, a noise floor at 60dB is just too high. What sound level meter do you have? Can you measure an LEQ over a few hours? That will give you a better idea of the average sound levels. But to be honest, I think that it's probably going to be too noisy.

Can you give me more details about the construction of the building, doors etc.??Also, when you say 10M square, is that 10x10?? Sounds about right in terms of dimensions.

[cheddatom]

yeh I'd say it's about 10m x 10m but one wall could be 9, the other 11, not sure really

 

The building is brick and the walls in this room seem like brick with plasterboard

 

Doors are just standard light affairs. Obviously I'd replace these with weighty fire doors or the like, and we could do double doors on every opening.

 

The main issue for me seemed to be the noise coming through the floor, and I'm not sure how to effectively reduce that. I could spend up to £1K I guess but is that really going to help?

 

I have a Silverline sound level meter. I was there for an hour trying it pointing in all directions and it didn't go above 60db on A weighting. I guess a standard singer into a close-mic would be at least 75db?! So if I compress that some of the background noise could come through. Other than that... But yeh I am guessing so any advice is most appreciated.

[Phill]

I actually did some building work on a few recording studios and a live room at a local college. We used two layers of 15mm decibel check plasterboard with dense insulation behind to minimise noise The first layer was screwed to a metal rail which was hung from the wooden beams and the second layer was glued to the first layer to stop sound transferring through the screws. I think that was a little overkill though.

The problem was, they spend all that money on the treatment for the walls and ceilings and then hung standard firedoors and you could still hear everything from the next studio space at the opposite side of the hallway which had the same treatment, and same firedoor.

[Assassin231]

i am about 99% sure that no pro compresses drums during tracking

also outboard is a bigger pain in the ass than plugins

 

you are 100% wrong - I can vouch for plenty of producers who range from no compression to tickling the kick and snare and perhaps dirty the rooms up a bit to full on compression. If the pros know the sound they want, why waste having to route it all out afterward when they could get the sound they are going for on the way in? Outboard is only a pain in the ass for the assistant engineers who have to patch it all in, even then theres nothing quite like watching a rack full of outboard flashing away in time with the drums

 

I am quite reluctant to overly EQ and compress in the way in (usually just notch EQ nothing additive and compression only in the most obvious applications)

[cheddatom]

I actually did some building work on a few recording studios and a live room at a local college. We used two layers of 15mm decibel check plasterboard with dense insulation behind to minimise noise The first layer was screwed to a metal rail which was hung from the wooden beams and the second layer was glued to the first layer to stop sound transferring through the screws. I think that was a little overkill though.

The problem was, they spend all that money on the treatment for the walls and ceilings and then hung standard firedoors and you could still hear everything from the next studio space at the opposite side of the hallway which had the same treatment, and same firedoor.

 

Interesting! Any ideas on separating a floor from the room below?

[Phill]

I'll see what I can find out. I imagine it would be easier to deal with from the ceiling below but I guess you could lay 100mm insulation across the entire floor area and lay a new floor on top. The problem is all the door ways etc would need raising 120mm.

[Jaicen]

It's actualy quite simple to make a floating floor to create a room in a room, just lay joists with rubber on top, and lay your floor over that. All you need to do is ensure that the floor is not attached to the joists.

I think you should add mass to your flooring before doing anything else. Adding mass is easy, just build your floors up and fill it with sand. Lots of mass with inherent damping. In a 10mx10m room, you'll might find that gets expensive, but it really is the best option. Nothing beats mass when trying to kill sound.

Once you've done that, float a nice wooden floor over it and you should be golden.

 

I will say again though, you'd be better off starting with a good building and improving that than starting with problems inherent in the structure. Also, consider the effect of noise leakage outside the studio.

[Jaicen]

I'll see what I can find out. I imagine it would be easier to deal with from the ceiling below but I guess you could lay 100mm insulation across the entire floor area and lay a new floor on top. The problem is all the door ways etc would need raising 120mm.

 

You could, it would make your room warmer!

 

It will still be noisy though.

[Phill]

You can get acoustic insulation as well as thermal... I imagine the standard xtratherm styrene type stuff isn't going to offer much sound insulation but there much be something similar that is. I know we've used a quilt insulation in the past split into layers with a couple of rubber membranes dividing the layers to dampen any sound. I know these kinds of materials start to get pricey though.

Maybe something like this

http://www.knaufinsulation.co.uk/en-gb/products/rock-mineral-wool-slabs/floor-slabs/acoustic-floor-slabs.aspx

[Jaicen]

You can get acoustic insulation as well as thermal... I imagine the standard xtratherm styrene type stuff isn't going to offer much sound insulation but there much be something similar that is. I know we've used a quilt insulation in the past split into layers with a couple of rubber membranes dividing the layers to dampen any sound. I know these kinds of materials start to get pricey though.

Maybe something like this

http://www.knaufinsulation.co.uk/en-gb/products/rock-mineral-wool-slabs/floor-slabs/acoustic-floor-slabs.aspx

 

I know, I'm doing a masters in acoustics