Trippynet Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 can't believe your all still going on about MOTP... it isn't a bad master that makes that sound weak, thats the sound that was recorded and mixed !! what muse song have you ever heard pounding drums come from they're not metallica, thank christ. And have artistic along with technical input during recording. They want to create a musical art piece, the pounding stuff is left for the live work. ... You cant say its the mastering at fault, you haven't heard what it sounded like before mastering, who said the mastering engineer even compressed it ?! they don't always have too. You're right to some degree in that it's hard to tell exactly how it should sound without hearing an un-mastered version, however unmastered versions do exist of 3 of the songs from BHAR and they sound miles better than the versions that ended up on the album. The drums are also considerably brighter and more punchy on them due to the lack of limiting. Also, the vinyl version of BHAR sounds considerably less harsh than the CD version as well due to the lack of clipping on it, although it is still massively over-compressed unfortunately. Regarding the drums, The Resistance is beautifully punchy from start to finish, so there's a whole album for you to digest. Showbiz is also fairly punchy due to lower levels of compression on it. As for MotP, only 4dB of dynamic range, drum beats that are so clipped and distorted that they've become square waves and over 100,000 clipped samples per channel. That cannot ever be the result of the recording and mixing. That has come purely from the mastering process and has come purely as a result of trying to make the song sound louder and louder. Hence, it's not an artistic slant, nor is it how the song was recorded and mixed. As for your final comment, go back to the very first post in this thread, take one look at the waveform there and then come back and look at your "who said the mastering engineer even compressed it ?! they don't always have too." comment. 4dB of dynamic range and a waveform which just looks like a solid, flat brick of sound. Sorry, but that's dynamic range compression for you and a lot of it at that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trippynet Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 BTW, who mastered the various albums? Can't be bothered to check right now. BHAR was mastered by Vlado Mellor (same guy who ruined Californication) and Howie Weinberg. Absolution was mastered by just Howie Weinberg alone. The Resistance on the other hand was mastered by Ted Jensen (which, combined with Muse's production instead of Rich Costey's, might help to explain why it's so much more punchy than the previous 2 albums). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lily93 Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 BHAR was mastered by Vlado Mellor (same guy who ruined Californication) and Howie Weinberg. Absolution was mastered by just Howie Weinberg alone. The Resistance on the other hand was mastered by Ted Jensen (which, combined with Muse's production instead of Rich Costey's, might help to explain why it's so much more punchy than the previous 2 albums). I'd say the engineers and Spike Stent are the reason it has dynamics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 can't believe your all still going on about MOTP... it isn't a bad master that makes that sound weak, thats the sound that was recorded and mixed !! what muse song have you ever heard pounding drums come from they're not metallica, thank christ. And have artistic along with technical input during recording. They want to create a musical art piece, the pounding stuff is left for the live work. Oh yeah Muse aren't being loud because of the loudness war they're are doing that for creative reasons. If that was how it was mixed then someone fucked up, clipped waveforms might be acceptable for mastering engineers to produce these days, but most professional mixers know better than to do that before mastering. If the drums were there before the volume was increased so much then that is how it should have sounded. Obviously it's a good idea to use some compression to make the record as loud as it can be without overly compromising the sound quality, by making sure there are no single loud points bringing the overall volume down and that the loudest point of the song is not much louder than the second loudest point and then peak level normalising the track, Nevermind is a good example of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Oh yeah Muse aren't being loud because of the loudness war they're are doing that for creative reasons. If that was how it was mixed then someone fucked up, clipped waveforms might be acceptable for mastering engineers to produce these days, but most professional mixers know better than to do that before mastering. If the drums were there before the volume was increased so much then that is how it should have sounded. Obviously it's a good idea to use some compression to make the record as loud as it can be without overly compromising the sound quality, by making sure there are no single loud points bringing the overall volume down and that the loudest point of the song is not much louder than the second loudest point and then peak level normalising the track, Nevermind is a good example of this. Please learn about 'creative' mixing & production/engineering of sounds. Nevermind is a good example of bad mixing. Stop mentioning it! The drums sound amazing because they are TOO LOUD. Not amazing mastering or production. BH&R is too compressed, but it's always a creative decision throughout. No Master Engineer would over-compress through their own choice, it is always by request! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trippynet Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 True. Given the volume and flatness of Absolution then especially BHAR and comparing that to the more punchy and dynamic sound of The Resistance, I'm inclined to believe that the request was most likely made by the producer. If it were the band then I'd have expected a poorer sound from The Resistance as well. As it is, the sound quality of BHAR and The Resistance are a world apart. As for Nevermind, we'll have to agree to disagree with that one. Personally I think the punchy drums sound great on it, but that's me. It does sound a bit overly polished for a grunge band, but I don't think it'd sound any less over-produced if the drums were quieter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 True. Given the volume and flatness of Absolution then especially BHAR and comparing that to the more punchy and dynamic sound of The Resistance, I'm inclined to believe that the request was most likely made by the producer. If it were the band then I'd have expected a poorer sound from The Resistance as well. As it is, the sound quality of BHAR and The Resistance are a world apart. As for Nevermind, we'll have to agree to disagree with that one. Personally I think the punchy drums sound great on it, but that's me. It does sound a bit overly polished for a grunge band, but I don't think it'd sound any less over-produced if the drums were quieter. The drums sound great, but at the cost of everything else on it! If they were a bit quieter, then the guitars would come through a bit more and everything generally sound bigger, whilst still having great sounding drums. They got it right on In Utero. But everything you do in music production has a consequence, going to town with Waves L3 destroys dynamics, doing nothing can mean needing to turn everything right up to get the best from it and if the amplifier isn't too powerful, could end up with distortion anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Please learn about 'creative' mixing & production/engineering of sounds. Nevermind is a good example of bad mixing. Stop mentioning it! The drums sound amazing because they are TOO LOUD. Not amazing mastering or production. BH&R is too compressed, but it's always a creative decision throughout. No Master Engineer would over-compress through their own choice, it is always by request! Another good example would be Automatic for the People or Jarvis Cocker's new album. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lily93 Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 Please learn about 'creative' mixing & production/engineering of sounds. The drums sound amazing because they are TOO LOUD. Not amazing mastering or production. Have you even talked to butch vig about it? Loudness is a general word. Played too hard? Too much in the mix? No headroom left? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Loudness is a general word. Played too hard? Too much in the mix? No headroom left? The amount of gain used on the drums in the mix was too high. Playing harder doesn't necessarily mean a change in volume/gain/mu and if you run out of headroom, we'd be talking about clipping. Varying your dynamics while playing guitar into a cranked amplifier will alter the amount of distortion as you've run out of headroom, but not necessarily altering volume except for maybe RMS and while that amplifier could be louder than a drum kit or singer in the 'live' room, in the control room the gain can be turned down so it's at a reasonable level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lily93 Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Nevermind was cut to tape.....if that's what we're still talking about. If in digital using a trim plugin will help if some pro tools noob decides to record well above -12 and using up all your headroom in 24 bit ....even if it never even clips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Nevermind was cut to tape.....if that's what we're still talking about. If in digital using a trim plugin will help if some pro tools noob decides to record well above -12 and using up all your headroom in 24 bit ....even if it never even clips. Digital and analogue summing amplifiers work in pretty much the same way, so I don't get what your point is. We're discussing mixing and mastering, not necessarily recording techniques. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lily93 Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Digital and analogue summing amplifiers work in pretty much the same way, so I don't get what your point is. We're discussing mixing and mastering, not necessarily recording techniques. http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/420334-reason-most-itb-mixes-don-t-sound-good-analog-mixes.html enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/420334-reason-most-itb-mixes-don-t-sound-good-analog-mixes.html enjoy Again, what has it got to do with anything? I really don't get what you're on about and why not try explaining rather than link to pointless nonsense. It's not essential to record under -12, it's just good practise. Sadly high & mighty types haven't learn this yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightofcydonia Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 I listened to the first 4 albums back to back the other night on headphones and at last I realised why I don't like Absolution; it's not the songs, some of which are good, it's the production. The vocal is clear, but the music is a bit muddy. BHaR is a revelation right after Abso. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trippynet Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 Strange, whilst I consider Absolution to be a bit on the muddy side as well, I consider BHAR to be even worse. It's one of the flattest, most muffled yet distorted albums I've heard in a long time and sounds a lot worse than Absolution to my ears. Incidentally, how does The Resistance rank through your headphones in comparison? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightofcydonia Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 Punchy. They're Panasonic HTX-7s and what they lack in finesse, they make up for it in fun and bassy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianshepherd Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 Hey guys, Great to see you discussing this, and that you care about Muse records sounding great. Here's an idea some of you might like to get involved in - a day of online protest against the Loudness Wars - starting tomorrow night: Dynamic Range Day - Taking Part It would be great to see some of you "there" ! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofsaturdaynight Posted March 20, 2010 Share Posted March 20, 2010 Hey guys, Great to see you discussing this, and that you care about Muse records sounding great. Here's an idea some of you might like to get involved in - a day of online protest against the Loudness Wars - starting tomorrow night: Dynamic Range Day - Taking Part It would be great to see some of you "there" ! Ian i wondered why this one had surfaced again yes that looks like a good idea to me - cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trippynet Posted March 20, 2010 Share Posted March 20, 2010 It is indeed a good idea. To be honest, I wouldn't feel bad if this thread kept on re-emerging until BHAR and possibly Absolution are remastered - even if just for vinyl or something. Either way, any sort of campaign which promotes better sounding music gets my approval! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lily93 Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 Strange, whilst I consider Absolution to be a bit on the muddy side as well, I consider BHAR to be even worse. It's one of the flattest, most muffled yet distorted albums I've heard in a long time and sounds a lot worse than Absolution to my ears. Incidentally, how does The Resistance rank through your headphones in comparison? Good. And it even sounds big on any playback system surprisingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofsaturdaynight Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 It is indeed a good idea. To be honest, I wouldn't feel bad if this thread kept on re-emerging until BHAR and possibly Absolution are remastered - even if just for vinyl or something. Either way, any sort of campaign which promotes better sounding music gets my approval! :-) you are sooooo right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enemy Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 I've always thought Absolution sounded great, and still hold that to this day. BHaR however... yikes, you're all right on that one. Just really glad that The Resistance came out sounding great too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORmusic Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 Well, everyone is talking about dynamic range compression and the loudness war on these 34 pages, but did you also think about the frequencies in the audio spectrum affected by the overcompression of music? I imported SMBH in a nice application called Sonic Visualiser (http://www.sonicvisualiser.org/download.html), and switched to the spectogram. I noticed that because of the compression a whole bunch of higher frequencies are missing (especially in the drums). The song sounds "dirtier" because of this, and the drums are clearly distorted. I looked up the dynamic range score for BHAR on this site: http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=102 . Well, as you'll see if you visit the site, it hasn't got that much dynamics :-( . TR is only slightly better, but is still "in the red zone". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 I noticed that because of the compression a whole bunch of higher frequencies are missing (especially in the drums). The song sounds "dirtier" because of this, and the drums are clearly distorted. lolwut Distortion adds high frequencies and/or makes them louder. Cutting the high frequencies of a distorted sound make it sound "bigger", not dirtier. Compression doesn't add or take away high frequencies, although old designs may do, but that's a different topic. SMBH doesn't have much high end in the drums purely because of the sounds used, mostly kick, snare, shaker and ever so subtlely a ride, the three main ones you just wouldn't have huge amounts of high end in them. Guitar/Bass amp speakers have a cut off from 3-5Khz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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