1984=United States of Eurasia

[TheThoughtPolice.]

Okay, sorry for saying calm down guys. Didn't mean it, but big debates like this scare me a little bit.

 

And. About Intro. I know it isn't a direct reference to 1984, I just noticed the connection, though it isn't deliberate.

 

I must say, I'm enjoying this debate a lot.

 

Jolly good.

[Hat]

Okay, sorry for saying calm down guys. Didn't mean it, but big debates like this scare me a little bit.

 

And. About Intro. I know it isn't a direct reference to 1984, I just noticed the connection, though it isn't deliberate.

 

I must say, I'm enjoying this debate a lot.

 

Jolly good.

But since it to 99% safety didn't have anything to do with the book or it's theme, I don't think it really has anything to do in the thread.

 

Btw, if you really enjoy the debate, stop trying to calm it down

[CarrieB]

But since it to 99% safety didn't have anything to do with the book or it's theme, I don't think it really has anything to do in the thread.

 

Btw, if you really enjoy the debate, stop trying to calm it down

 

 

I think the debating has finished anyway so you're too late!

[TheThoughtPolice.]

But since it to 99% safety didn't have anything to do with the book or it's theme, I don't think it really has anything to do in the thread.

 

I'm talking about the link between a Muse song and 1984, something I feel has everything to do with the thread.

 

And YES, I know it isn't a deliberate reference to 1984, but me, being the nerd I am, noticed it and decided to let others know that I noticed it..

 

Yes, the connection is merely a coincidence, but I still found it interesting.

[TheThoughtPolice.]

"All of history deleted with one stroke.." - MK Ultra

 

A sly reference or me looking too deeply into it..?

[spark_]

"All of history deleted with one stroke.." - MK Ultra

 

A sly reference or me looking too deeply into it..?

Possibly, but then again very possibly not. Given that that song is most definitely not about 1984 I would say not.

[HyperJamie]

I have literally just finished re-reading 1984 and, if anything, there is only one song that can be solely 'inspired' by 1984 and that is Resistance. The whole thing is constructed around Part 2 and the first few chapters where Winston and Julia fall in love. That song is LOADED with references.

 

The thing about Newspeak is really interesting. It's all part of O'Brien's bit at the end: we only know the world that exists in our minds, so if our mind's tell us that 2+2=5 then it does. The levitiation example is good as well. So if the Government both regulates and restricts the terms with which we can think, it controls how we think which, as O'Brien states, is part of the ultimate goal of the Party (to stay in power forever). THIS IS NOT REALLY MENTIONED IN THE RESISTANCE... if anything it is the musical antithesis of this as it has a really varied song range compared to other albums.

 

USOE is the Grand Chessboard in a nutshell which is based on Mackinder's work in 1906, basically saying that if a nation were to control Eastern Europe it owns the heartland and the world island, Eurasia. BLAH. USA didn't want this, obviously, so set out to undermine the Heartland. It's Geopolitics 101. The bit about the heartland is briefly mentioned in 1984 in Goldstein's thesis, where there's that little bit of the world that everyone fights over.

 

on another note, is anyone gonna lock this topic since it's just rehashing everything from last summer?

[CarrieB]

Possibly, but then again very possibly not. Given that that song is most definitely not about 1984 I would say not.

 

But in 1984 direct brain washing techniques are used on Winston and Julia, with methods including, deprivation, starvation and torture. Project MK Ultra is exactly that, well the theory that such techniques have been used in reality and are still are being used. Thus MK Ultra is extremely likely, in my mind, to be directly associated with themes in the book.

 

Also why on earth should the thread be locked? Is it policy that discussion should be restricted just because it's been discussed previously? The discussion continues to be relevant in my opinion.

[spark_]

But in 1984 direct brain washing techniques are used on Winston and Julia, with methods including, deprivation, starvation and torture. Project MK Ultra is exactly that, well the theory that such techniques have been used in reality and are still are being used. Thus MK Ultra is extremely likely, in my mind, to be directly associated with themes in the book.

 

Also why on earth should the thread be locked? Is it policy that discussion should be restricted just because it's been discussed previously? The discussion continues to be relevant in my opinion.

 

No, I would say that MK Ultra is about MK Ultra - not about 1984. And I doubt it is about both either.

 

You seem to have completely misconstrued 1984... don't read it as an ordinary story. It is not. It is the exploration of a series of political ideas Orwell had been developing for several decades.

 

Agree exactly with HyperJamie's points. Resistance, that is quite blatantly about 1984. USOE - somewhat inspired by 1984. The rest - no. Not more than any more material.

[shadowkay]

olol

[CarrieB]

No, I would say that MK Ultra is about MK Ultra - not about 1984. And I doubt it is about both either.

 

You seem to have completely misconstrued 1984... don't read it as an ordinary story. It is not. It is the exploration of a series of political ideas Orwell had been developing for several decades.

 

Agree exactly with HyperJamie's points. Resistance, that is quite blatantly about 1984. USOE - somewhat inspired by 1984. The rest - no. Not more than any more material.

 

I've done my best not to be patronising in my posts to you! But actually I can't see how anyone can not see a link tbh. You have no more evidence to base what you are saying than I have.

 

Until Matt specifically tells us that there is absolutely no link between the song MK Ultra and the story, I will continue to think it very likely. It seems like too much of a coincidence to me that there wouldn't be some link between the thinking behind including a song about Project MK Ultra and reading the events depicted in the book, which Matt has said himself the album is influenced by, even though it's not a direct telling of the story.

 

The Resistance isn't a rock opera telling the story of the book but it appears to be taking references from the book throughout and reflecting them in songs about today's society imo.

 

PS I do know a little bit about George Orwell. I've read Animal Farm and I've researched some of his thinking in relation to the working class for an essay and towards patriotism. I've also constantly come across references to 1984 in various academic books related to British history and psychology.

 

I don't know about Orwell inside out and back to front but I doubt Matt does either!

[spark_]

Have you come across his ideas on political language? There are about four or five essays of his that really stand out in terms of nailing some of the ideas he explores (and in some cases goes completely against) in 1984.

[CarrieB]

Have you come across his ideas on political language? There are about four or five essays of his that really stand out in terms of nailing some of the ideas he explores (and in some cases goes completely against) in 1984.

 

No I haven't. I'll have a look out for them. I've done a bit of stuff on the part language plays in social construction, Foucault etc, but that's possibly something different.

 

I don't know, to me, concentrating too much on that aspect in this instance detracts from the core message which is basically anti-totalitarian, though of course Matt has also taken inspiration from the love story to make a separate comment and one that isn't all that relevant to the political aspects. That seems to me more just trying to make sense of what is important in life. Matt said that Resistance was about how being with your loved ones was core.

 

Though, Orwell did do that in 1984. I think one of the aspects is that although Winston felt superior to the proletariat, he also envied the simpleness of their lives and felt like an outsider, like he was missing out on what was important in life (I can't remember if that was my own idea or I read it - I think I may have read it in someone else's assessment of the book) but those were the things he felt he found in his secret intimacy with Julia, something which of course by the end of the book was wrecked. Maybe that's comment on intrusion of the state into private lives.

 

I don't know, I'll have to read the essays you talk about because I can see that there might be a possible overlap with Foucault.

 

PS If you could tell me what those essays are called or where I could find them it would be good!

[spark_]

Look at it. It is his most important work IMO. That's the most striking thing was about 1984. That is its defining feature. Newspeak and doublethink. The reason this is important is that Orwell believed incredibly strongly that literature, language etc. and freedom are inextricably linked.

 

The essays:

 

Why I Write

Politics And The English Language (a must, this is a masterwork IMO)

(tangentially related) Writers And Leviathan

The Prevention Of Literature (also very good)

(tangentially related) Notes On Nationalism (also very very good)

Literature and Totalitarianism (this was about 8 years before 1984 i think but the similarities are blatant)

Looking Back On the Spanish War (I haven't read Homage To Catalonia but I want to)

[CarrieB]

Okay I'll have a look. Maybe you should also look at Foucault who also believed that language has a major influence on Freedom.

 

Though I still don't accept that Matt needed to include those aspects in order to appreciate the "defining" message of the book. There is so much more in there, imo. What he does is see things through an artistic rather than academic perspective, though I'm not saying there is a true division.

 

Incidentally, haha, I was looking at Orwell on wikaepaedia in relation to his ideas on language and I'm fully with him on his idea on using plain English and keeping to the point. The amount of stuff I've read in the last year where an idea expressed using 10 paragraphs could have been said in one sentence. It's infuriating! And the language is elitist in my view.

 

Though I can see that you're saying that the opposite is being said in 1984, that language is being restricted in order to control.

 

I will read the essays with interest.