I didn't watch your clips at first because upon checking the first few they all seemed to be very, very long - I didn't have the time. That said, I have had an interest in researching these sort of theories in the past; I find them quite interesting, but I have never been fully pursuaded to accept any of them as truth. Not yet, anyway - but like I say, I'm open to all possibilities.

In honour of our rather long, rather heated debate, I'll check out the HAARP doco when I get a chance and I'll let you know my thoughts on it... but for now, I need sleep. Goodnight!

I apologise with the religion thing, or for offending you at any point - it was honestly never my intention. Hopefully any further meetings around these forums are of a distinctly less serious nature!

Perhaps this has gotten to a point where we clearly disagree with eachother and there's no reason to continue. I feel bad about arguing, and I can't see this reaching any particularly great resolution. We've gone very far away from my original point and the topic has been closed anyway. Plus it's getting late... What do you say? Keen to forget this whole thing and move on?

I say you're mistaken because you are - your interpretation of what I'm saying is simply not true, and now you've misunderstood me again. I never made that assumption and I certainly never accused you of lying to push an agenda; I know that you honestly believe these things to be true; I would simply ask you to remain open to all possibilities.

You accuse me of not wanting to look at both sides of the story, yet that is exactly what I'm doing and exactly what you refuse to do! I am open to the possibility that either side could be right - there are compelling arguments both for and against and I try to weigh them all. On the other hand, you simply believe all the ones that say the theories are true and completely shut yourself out to those who disagree, denying any possibility that they're right.

I never questioned faith! To suggest I did is to miss the point completely. I used faith as an analogy, to explain how open-mindedness is ultimately the only "reasonable" position to take on matters of belief; and that's exactly what conspiracy theories are.

Being agnostic I'd have thought you would understand this concept; do you not see the similarity between youself and a person preaching religion? Much like them, you absolutely believe in your cause - so much so that you have complete disregard for anyone who says anything against it.

For every scrap of "proof" in favor of these theories, there is counter-proof. To lock yourself into believing one or the other is to have no objectivity, no chance of seeing things in an unbiased way.

It is no different to religion, and I cannot comprehend how a person could be agnostic toward religion yet completely close-minded on issues such as these.

As the forum is closed I thought I could hopefully conclude this discussion here. Continuing from your last post...

You are mistaken; I never said you were wrong and I'm not arguing in favor of one side or the other; I'm simply arguing in favor of open-mindedness.

I choose to believe the side which I personally consider most likely to be true, based off research and judgements made by myself, but I'm open to the possibility that I might be wrong. Many of these conspiracies could be true; it's simply my personal judgement and opinion that they are unlikely.

What I mean to say is that I'm open to the possibility of these things in the same way I'm open to the possiblity of anything, but I will not believe things when there are arguments both for and against them. It is impossible to know with absolute certainty which side is right, and your claim of knowing the truth can not be taken with any more weight than the words of a person who says you're wrong.

It's like asking who's got it right - a religious man or an atheist? It's a judgement we have to make for ourselves. I'm neither a religious man nor an atheist, but rather a person open to all possibilities. I look at things not as "right" and "wrong", but as what I consider to be most reasonable and most likely at any given point in time.

Simply put, I presume nothing to be true, and I present nothing as truth beyond that which is undeniable fact.

I've never said these theories are wrong, I've simply said that they may not be true, and that's it's wrong to call them true and to tell other people they are true without possibly being able to know with absolute certainty.

My question to you is; do you admit you could be wrong?

We're called December Seven. You probably haven't heard of us unless you're into the local gig scene, which I'm guessing you won't be - being 17 and all! We've been played on the radio before, but only one single so far - we're saving a lot of our work for when we hit Melbourne (at which point we'll be releasing our first 5-track EP... very exciting!).

If you're interested, you can follow us on myspace - http://www.myspace.com/decemberseven

Haha - thankyou, thankyou... Clearly you have pretty decent taste yourself

That said, you might be a bit disapointed to learn that I'm moving to Melbourne with my band in the next month or so... So that's one less Perth Muse fan. Actually, it's four if you count the other guys in the band... but oh well! I'm sure you'll find more around the place