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Wow. Can't say that I know that much about these things, but this thread is hilarious.

 

Keep it up pinkfloyddsotm! With your argumentation technique you might actually fool someone without a single valid point in the future.

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One other point is that while, okay it's right that any scams should be uncovered, anarchy for it's own sake is pretty pointless. I mean it could be said that people were more free when they went out and hunted and grew their own food, but I doubt there's many who would want to return to that lifestyle. There has to be some kind of structure in place so what do the conspiracy theorists suggest this should be? I mean apart from us all having some kind of awakening and recognising our collective consciousness. On a practical level?

 

Are they recommending communism? True communism that is.

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what i said was "standard deviation" ?, :LOL: , so every person that says the music industry is bad is going to tell you something similar to what i said, yer ok that makes sense, and are you suggesting you work high up in the marketing side of the music industry ?

 

your pathetic for thinking that us as a society dictates whats "cool" for the music industry, LMAO.

 

It's more complicated than just society alone, there's more factors, but to suggested the industry itself can dictate what people like and buy is beyond stupid and lead it on from there into claims of brainwashing is even more than beyond stupid, whatever that may be.

 

The best selling commercial pop of the 80's and early 90's was actually an indie label (PWL, aka Stock, Aitken & Waterman) with no ties to the majors and the majors had to copy them to compete and you still see them following that model today as well as Madonna's approach, who also originally signed to an indie label, Sire (At the time anyway).

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But you've been asked several times to cite independent references and failed to do so. That's an FUD tactic.

 

1. NWO-

http://www.scribd.com/doc/19826455/New-World-Order-The-Randy-Engel-Dr-Larry-Dunegan-Tapes-Fom-19691988

A ton of quoted references proving depopulation is part of the agenda

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=129082.0

 

2. Swine Flu Vaccine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0gvDkVcFkI

http://www.wijwordenwakker.org/content.asp?m=M101&s=M106&ss=P733&l=EN

http://1phil4everyill.wordpress.com/2009/10/22/proof-that-european-h1n1-vaccines-contain-mercury-squalene-and-tween-80/

http://mmsforhispaniola.com/?p=1017

 

3. Global Warming

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming

http://www.aproundtable.org/tps30info/globalwarmup.html

http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/

the last link is one of the best ive found, just have a read through

 

4. Mind Control manipulation & setting of agenda's (through all mediums of entertainment)

This only needs one link as i think this site sums it up perfectly.

http://vigilantcitizen.com/?p=3571

 

Someone can remind me if i forgot any others as i cannot be fucked going back through 10 pages of what ive said, i could have posted many more resources but i doubt anyone will even read the links ive posted. Theres just so much info and disinfo you've got to filter through the shit but ive made up my mind yet still willing to swallow my pride if im wrong , which would take ALOT of evidence to change my mind.

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"It isn't required for people to prove you wrong until you prove yourself correct", this doesnt make sense, being correct is entirely up to the individual and how they percieve my information.

 

Absolutely wrong, truth is not subjective. For example, 9/11 wasn't an inside job depending on whether someone thinks it is or not, it either is or it isn't. It makes perfect sense, whereas the idea that the truth is subjective is entirely incoherent.

 

I can give citations on all the information i give, and their is "extraordinary evidence" on heaps of " conspiracy theories" , just got to filter through it all

Hell most of the shit i read hasnt got much to do with conspiracies, Im not into shit like "the moon landing was fake", im more into government,political ,scientific tyranny that has to do with the stripping of basic liberties and being a free individualist person and not being a controlled slave. idk its to diverse and ill start rambling again. :)

 

You say you can give but you don't, despite numerous opportunities to do so, and make it out as if providing any kind of genuine evidence to support your claim is a mammoth effort and it'd be unreasonable for you to have to do so.

 

And when you dog et round to it, I doubt th evidence will be credible. Probably just some dodgy youtube videos and conspiracy propaganda sites with obvious agenda.

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It's more complicated than just society alone, there's more factors, but to suggested the industry itself can dictate what people like and buy is beyond stupid and lead it on from there into claims of brainwashing is even more than beyond stupid, whatever that may be.

.

 

i know its complicated and i dont want to feel like im being condescending towards you but you got to admit alot of todays mainstream pop music videos are containing alot more darker and symbolic imagery whether it be phallic symbols , murder, masochism, police state milliterization style imagery, bondage, One has to think what this all means and why ? There's a ton of different theories.

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i know its complicated and i dont want to feel like im being condescending towards you but you got to admit alot of todays mainstream pop music videos are containing alot more darker and symbolic imagery whether it be phallic symbols , murder, masochism, police state milliterization style imagery, bondage, One has to think what this all means and why ? There's a ton of different theories.

 

Then you're looking for a link and possibly trying to fit one to it all that isn't really there.

 

If somebody comes along and has a huge hit with a dark song with a dark video, it'll be copied to death. Rihanna (And everyone else who worked on it) came along with Umbrella and it sold by the bucketload... But it's not like any of these themes hadn't existed for decades within music beforehand anyway.

 

I believe Rihanna for that album worked with the director of some of Marilyn Manson's videos and Marilyn Manson's success was based around shocking people and shock tactics always work.

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Hah. Apparently my prediction was slightly too late.

 

1. NWO-

http://www.scribd.com/doc/19826455/New-World-Order-The-Randy-Engel-Dr-Larry-Dunegan-Tapes-Fom-19691988

 

Erm, what is this? Care to summarise? I flicked through and it has all kinds of nonsense about trying to control to world with sex education :erm:

 

 

Youtube videos by infowars aren't objective evidence. And they're youtube videos.

 

A ton of quoted references proving depopulation is part of the agenda

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=129082.0

 

Lower populations should be a goal of every government because the world can't support a massive population. Everyone knows this. It isn't a secret.

 

2. Swine Flu Vaccine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0gvDkVcFkI

 

Youtube...

 

http://www.wijwordenwakker.org/content.asp?m=M101&s=M106&ss=P733&l=EN

 

I don't know what this is but it also talks about Roswell. I bet you believe in that one too :LOL:

 

http://1phil4everyill.wordpress.com/2009/10/22/proof-that-european-h1n1-vaccines-contain-mercury-squalene-and-tween-80/

 

Shows at best that vaccines sometimes contain chemicals that can be harmful, but it's very dubious by trying to show that squalene is harmful because of some tenuous links to GWS. Squalene is present in the human body naturally...

 

Can you not just post the research papers to show these things if they're indeed true rather than a blog with an agenda interpreting things from limited sources to draw conclusions?

 

http://mmsforhispaniola.com/?p=1017

 

Based on that naturalnews thing that cites British tabloids as sources, not credible in the slightest.

 

3. Global Warming

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming

 

The creationists pull this one too with their list of scientists who don't accept evolution. A list of scientists isn't evidence for anything, since there's probably a list 3000 times as long for all the mainstream scientists that do accept it. "Scientists" isn't very authoritative. If you had something like 73% of climatologists contest mm global warming then that'd be worthwhile, a list of scientists who range from physicists to chemists who know little about the climate means nothing.

 

http://www.aproundtable.org/tps30info/globalwarmup.html

 

Too silly to really comment on. The first point is entirely wrong, see above for why.

All the other points are indeed wrong and it'd take a minute for each to see why (plenty of evidence that gw is happening, modest warming would be good, models too crude), and the article has zero to few citations, let alone scientific citation, so it really is of little worth.

 

I can;t be bothered with this any more because the above are nonsense, and it shows you have little ability to discern trustworthy sources, and that should worry you deeply, because if you can't grasp what kind of source is a good place to find information, then how can you ever trust in what you're reading?

 

Read up on the skills required to judge the authority and trustworthiness of sources (I guess you missed those classes in school..)

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i know its complicated and i dont want to feel like im being condescending towards you but you got to admit alot of todays mainstream pop music videos are containing alot more darker and symbolic imagery whether it be phallic symbols , murder, masochism, police state milliterization style imagery, bondage, One has to think what this all means and why ? There's a ton of different theories.

 

Yeah. Those things make a video interesting, exciting and/or sexy. It doesn't have to mean more than what it is on the surface. You;re specifically looking for it to be something more than what it is and question begging as if there really is something else going on. It's a little deceptive. And just because there "theories", which are in fact mainly fantasies, it doesn't give the idea that something secret is going on any credence.

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Absolutely wrong, truth is not subjective. For example, 9/11 wasn't an inside job depending on whether someone thinks it is or not, it either is or it isn't. It makes perfect sense, whereas the idea that the truth is subjective is entirely incoherent.

 

You say you can give but you don't, despite numerous opportunities to do so, and make it out as if providing any kind of genuine evidence to support your claim is a mammoth effort and it'd be unreasonable for you to have to do so.

 

And when you dog et round to it, I doubt th evidence will be credible. Probably just some dodgy youtube videos and conspiracy propaganda sites with obvious agenda.

 

wow going very philosophical on the subjective debate, it is understandable though.

 

and their are a few credible legit sites i visit to gain another perspective on subject matters, its just you could say the same thing with gathering your intel from a wherever you get yours from ,every site has got their own motivations.

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1. NWO-

http://www.scribd.com/doc/19826455/New-World-Order-The-Randy-Engel-Dr-Larry-Dunegan-Tapes-Fom-19691988

A ton of quoted references proving depopulation is part of the agenda

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=129082.0

 

2. Swine Flu Vaccine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0gvDkVcFkI

http://www.wijwordenwakker.org/content.asp?m=M101&s=M106&ss=P733&l=EN

http://1phil4everyill.wordpress.com/2009/10/22/proof-that-european-h1n1-vaccines-contain-mercury-squalene-and-tween-80/

http://mmsforhispaniola.com/?p=1017

 

3. Global Warming

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming

http://www.aproundtable.org/tps30info/globalwarmup.html

http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/

the last link is one of the best ive found, just have a read through

 

4. Mind Control manipulation & setting of agenda's (through all mediums of entertainment)

This only needs one link as i think this site sums it up perfectly.

http://vigilantcitizen.com/?p=3571

 

Someone can remind me if i forgot any others as i cannot be fucked going back through 10 pages of what ive said, i could have posted many more resources but i doubt anyone will even read the links ive posted. Theres just so much info and disinfo you've got to filter through the shit but ive made up my mind yet still willing to swallow my pride if im wrong , which would take ALOT of evidence to change my mind.

 

And when you dog et round to it, I doubt th evidence will be credible. Probably just some dodgy youtube videos and conspiracy propaganda sites with obvious agenda.

 

Nailed it! :LOL:

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See that's where you're wrong. Not everyone has "motivations" beyond presenting true information (despite your cynical world view), and I get my information from as objective sources I can find. You have to look beyond the "site" of course, a website on it's own is just text on a page, you have to be critical of where the information is coming from.

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And when you dog et round to it, I doubt th evidence will be credible. Probably just some dodgy youtube videos and conspiracy propaganda sites with obvious agenda.

 

What do you think the underlying agenda is Niall?

 

Incidentally I don't automatically doubt the integrity of people who believe the information from these sites, even if there are better resources, but I just wonder whether anyone has found an underlying reason for the propaganda other than true concern regarding the situation.

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Yeah. Those things make a video interesting, exciting and/or sexy. It doesn't have to mean more than what it is on the surface. You;re specifically looking for it to be something more than what it is and question begging as if there really is something else going on. It's a little deceptive. And just because there "theories", which are in fact mainly fantasies, it doesn't give the idea that something secret is going on any credence.

 

It's an example of how cold readers work as well...because there are always people willing to see connections in things, even if the cold reader just puts out a generic statement.

 

Citing small examples from third-party sources does not creditable research make, as Yoda would probably say. That Scribd site, for example, was just one guy saying things he thought were true but have no proof of them, like the cancer claim. Another example of FUD, as he claims cancer can be cured but surprise surprise, the alleged evidence is safely locked away somewhere.

 

The Bill Gates thing was him talking about how to reduced CO2 levels, not population levels, it's a case of people looking for something and twisting it to fit their own means.

 

The swine flu/Thiomeral thing is rubbish as well, Thiomeral is used only in multi-purpose vaccines like MMR etc. The only reason people think it was linked with autism was because the FDA requested manufacturers to remove Thiomeral from their vaccines, which led to people being convinced that there was a link, when the scientific consensus throughout the world is that there is no link between Thiomeral and autism.

 

Flu vaccines in general are usually only given to the most vulnerable because of the cost of providing vaccines. And if the vaccines were truly dangerous we'd have been seeing much more of a mortality rate during the flu season in the elderly and in those with weak immune systems, but we don't.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/vaccination/effectivenessqa.htm shows the effectiveness of vaccines in reducing influenza illnesses and explains how this effectiveness is measured.

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What do you think the underlying agenda is Niall?

 

Incidentally I don't doubt the integrity of people who believe the information from these sites, even if there are better resources, but I just wonder whether anyone has found an underlying reason for the propaganda.

 

Depends on the conspiracy under discussion, but it would be to push that conspiracy. To prove that there is some sort of secret NWO thing or that 9/11 was the work of the US gov or that global warming doesn't exist or isn't man made and so on. infowars makes no attempt to appear unbiased.

 

Compare that to something like NewScientist or an even better source, such as arXiv or PubMed that are purely archives, or something like Wikileaks that has probably been the only good source of leaked secrets there is. No agendas other than to have the interesting truth published.

 

I think their integrity is totally open to question, at least, in that they are obviously greatly unaware of what constitutes a reliable, authorative and unbiased source of information.

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Depends on the conspiracy under discussion, but it would be to push that conspiracy. To prove that there is some sort of secret NWO thing or that 9/11 was the work of the US gov or that global warming doesn't exist or isn't man made and so on. infowars makes no attempt to appear unbiased.

 

Compare that to something like NewScientist or an even better source, such as arXiv or PubMed that are purely archives, or something like Wikileaks that has probably been the only good source of leaked secrets there is. No agendas other than to have the interesting truth published.

 

so you will agree that CIA helped fund,train and arm the taliban as per leaked wikileak documents ? is this something we agree on ?

i use to believe in global warming as i live on the beach noticed sand dune erosion was becomming worse and thought it was due to rising sea levels LMAO. I was naive and was just followin the mainstream consensus. If you wont read into the opposing global warming story and disprove it then how do you know ? and how could you want to be taxed even more if they bring in some carbon tax or ETS , Australia as it is , is already one of the highest tax countries in the world and we dont need anymore ! Even if it is true, their has to be some alternative way to overcome it.

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Depends on the conspiracy under discussion, but it would be to push that conspiracy. To prove that there is some sort of secret NWO thing or that 9/11 was the work of the US gov or that global warming doesn't exist or isn't man made and so on. infowars makes no attempt to appear unbiased.

 

Compare that to something like NewScientist or an even better source, such as arXiv or PubMed that are purely archives, or something like Wikileaks that has probably been the only good source of leaked secrets there is. No agendas other than to have the interesting truth published.

 

I think their integrity is totally open to question, at least, in that they are obviously greatly unaware of what constitutes a reliable, authorative and unbiased source of information.

 

Yeah I don't mean bias, I'm referring to agenda. I'm wondering what agenda for instance would be behind the wish to produce false or unbalanced information to support claims that there's a secret NWO. I'm not necessarily expecting you to know btw.

 

I think I can possibly guess at the agenda behind disputing a human element to global warming and the agenda behind disputing evolutionary theory.

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These things get started because of paranoia. And for the same reasons as religious cults, to gain that sense of importance that people follow your every word and that the majority are wrong.

 

It's more than just paranoia, it can also be manipulation & exploitation of vulnerable people by feeding them a bunch of overblown fantasies of government and corporate manipulation.

 

The Matrix was ultimately about two forms of control, both were fantasy worlds, one being a false reality, the other fighting to free those from the false reality despite being in a false reality themselves. The "red pill" only took them to the second form of control.

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It's more than just paranoia, it can also be manipulation & exploitation of vulnerable people by feeding them a bunch of overblown fantasies of government and corporate manipulation.

 

The Matrix was ultimately about two forms of control, both were fantasy worlds, one being a false reality, the other fighting to free those from the false reality despite being in a false reality themselves. The "red pill" only took them to the second form of control.

 

Skinner (a psychologist and big contributor to the theory that all of our behaviour is the result of conditioning through experience) argued in his book "Beyond Freedom and Dignity" that throughout history, what has been seen as a struggle for freedom is actually not a wish to have free will, but to avoid detrimental experiences, and the issue at stake was not to remove control, but to concentrate on the form of control to which an individual would be exposed. Your comment on the Matrix reminded me of that. I had to do an essay on free will. :)

 

Actually I just looked at the back of the book and it says "so - in this book which some might prefer to see published in 1984 - " :shifty::LOL: I didn't notice that before.

 

I find this sort of stuff fascinating actually. And it has been my feeling that to believe in all the weird ideas, and, by that, I mean the extreme stuff regarding occult symbolism, NWO, handlers, brain control, alluminati, control by paedophiles etc :eek: not the stuff about government corruption, media influence and capitalism which I think has basis, there must be some "brainwashing" going on.

 

I'm going to ramble on here so ignore anyone who has an aversion to long posts, but studies and events have shown that people can be convinced to believe in quite extreme things, and perform extreme acts, under certain conditions. There was an event where hundreds of people were persuaded to kill themselves by knowingly drinking something (?kool aid containing arsenic - I've been trying to find the information again) by the leader of a cult, even giving the drink to their children, About 200 children died.

 

The conditions which produced this event were things like a charismatic leader, a feeling of alienation from society by the people involved, isolation and the promise of a good afterlife. Scary stuff. I'm not saying that to be sensationalist but I just wonder if any of the characteristics of the individuals involved are shared by people who believe unquestionably in the more extreme conspiracy theories.

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