The Art of Good Songwriting/Composition

[Maneachicken]

I just thought i'd see what K&T would have to say about the art of good song writing, hopefully just sparking some discussion off, and hopefully to teach me some things and help me to be more of a skilled songwriter and others that may be interested.

 

Im also usless at good hooks and experimenting with chord progressions. Through listening to lots of Muse, Editors and other similar bands I find it hard to escape the influence of how their songs progress. It's also a case that if a chord 'sounds like it should come next' then it is best that that stays the case, however I always find i come to the end of a section - say a chorus, and find it just sounds too, I dunno, just not how I want it to sound (often it sounds too poppy, whereas i'd prefer to go into darker territory).

 

Also when it comes to songwriting, I can never (almost ever) get the verses to sound (its a hard way to describe) like they are each different with some variation, for example, whether it should just be bass and drums in the verses or being more guitar driven.

 

Any tips or just general discussion would be great, cheers!

[nendo]

My advice would be not to ask in the muse forums and to find a forum dedicated to songwriter in and composing.

 

No offence to members its just that i think you can find alot more advice on songwriting outside of this forum.

[Lexical_Whale]

If you're finding that everything you write is sounding too much like a rip off of one band then you probably need to listen to a wider range of music. If you're actually into music then you should find yourself wanting to listen to all sorts of different genres and find new stuff anyway. Basically if your ipod has nothing but '80s cock rock on it then chances are that's the sort of thing you'll end up writing.

 

Chord sequences that are predictable can be a really good thing because it'll often lead to something that's familiar and easily remembered by your listener, there's a reason so many well known songs use tried and tested chord sequences. Often the chord which 'sounds like it should come next' will sound that way because it fits diatonically in the key of the song. Diatonic chord sequences can sound a bit twee and poppy though so using a minor chord where you should be using a major chord, for example, can be an easy way of making things sound a bit more unusual. Read up on chord substitution and extended chords as well, that might help make boring or common chord sequences a bit more interesting.

 

Finally the best way to sort out different parts and variations is to jam it with a band. If you're writing everything on a guitar by yourself you'll be unlikely to have any sections where the guitar isn't playing because obviously that'll just end up as silence. Remember that not everyone has to be playing all the time and you'll find creating variations in the texture of the song much easier. Also remember that things don't necessarily have to be deliberately complicated to sound good, it's all about the final result. There's some great songs that are just one or two chords or riffs which would sound incredibly boring if you just play the guitar parts alone but once you add the rest of the instruments, a melody and some lyrics you get something sounding completely different.

 

EDIT: Feel free to disregard this though. Obviously as this is a Muse forum none of the members here could possibly know anything outside of useless trivia about Matt's favourite colour hat

[Liam511]

I just tried writing something... Im not even sure I can play it but ill give it a shot xD I doubt making something your not sure you can play is the best way to go about it but it sounds good

[cheddatom]

I think writing riffs, chord sequences, melodies etc is kind of random, where as "arrangment" is a skill that can be taught - how to create dynamics in the song, how to keep interest without being repetetive etc.

 

I reckon i'm pretty good at putting songs together, but I don't often come up with new ideas because i'm too busy playing cheesy slap bass on the guitar.

[Lexical_Whale]

I think writing riffs, chord sequences, melodies etc is kind of random, where as "arrangment" is a skill that can be taught - how to create dynamics in the song, how to keep interest without being repetetive etc.

 

Up to a point I think you're right. One of, if not the most important, things which divides what people see as "good music" and "bad music" is familiarity. This means that if you're trying to come up with something that more than a handful of beardy wannabe artists and philosophers are likely to appreciate then you need to learn and follow at least some established rules and conventions. For example almost all western music uses the same 12 note scale, that's what our ears are familiar with and if you don't use it then chances are most people will think your music is horrible and dissonant. That's a bit obvious but the point is that you have to learn basic rules like this just the same as you have to learn how to write things in key because that's familiar to our daft western ears and we're all wired to like what's familiar and dislike things that aren't. Even if you're just randomly messing about making up riffs you're probably playing in key and whatnot because that's what you're programmed to find pleasing.

 

Obviously it cuts both ways though. Follow the rules too closely and you'll end up with stuff that's safe and familar to most but boring to anyone who's listened more widely than just top 40 hits but microtonal stuff composed by Harry Partch is likely to stick rigidly to a set of rules and conventions but will still sound horrible to most people because we're not familiar with those kinds of scales and sounds. Conversely a 12 bar blues changes key with each chord change but sounds completely fine to us because it's so familiar to us.

 

TL: DR - Making popular music is usually about following familiar conventions and rules. Making good music is usually about subverting some of those rules. Either way it's best to know them rather than flailing around in the dark.

[cheddatom]

I like experimental and weird music. I think you're right with respect to pop music, but to create "good" music doesn't necessarily require knowledge of music IMO - although inevitably it does (I mean no-one hears no music and then starts making music with that lack of knowledge).

[Lexical_Whale]

I like experimental and weird music.

 

This is a bit of a grey area for me, and I'd think most people because hearing completely new sounds and strange music can be really exciting and cool but then again for every genuinely brilliant experimental piece of music I've heard there must be 10 pieces which still sound to me like a bloke randomly hitting piano keys with a violin or a bag of cats being thown down the stairs. Just goes to show how big a role exposure and experience go to defining peoples taste.

 

Incidently this also reminds me of talking to some girl about something very similar. She was saying that any music is easy enough to appreciate for anyone, I made the point that there's a lot of world music which we have no point of reference for and therefore sounds close to unlistenable as music (meaning a lot of traditional far eastern music, Tuvan throat singing and the like). She said that this was bollocks because she loved all sorts of world music. I think her exact words were "Anything from Wagner to Beethoven"

[Xut]

Go listen to Coheed and Cambria for about a month, this will surely influence you into making less poppy stuff.

[cheddatom]

Lol!

 

You are right, i think in general our musical tastes are built from our experiences. I try to force myself into new stuff though - like food you don't like at first.

[Xut]

Lol!

 

You are right, i think in general our musical tastes are built from our experiences. I try to force myself into new stuff though - like food you don't like at first.

 

yeah, our band's music sounds like wolfmother, but I'm gonna change alot of things into more melodic stuff, mix in some Coheed.

[cheddatom]

When we started out, I used to go on about trying to make certain songs sound like X or Y. These days I try to ignore other music as much as possible - probably the reason i'm listening to less rock, as that's the style we play.

 

It's always a bit weird when people say "I want this to sound like this band, crossed with this band". Each to their own, y'know, but you should be trying to make stuff that sounds like YOUR band IMO.

[Simno]

My tip would be to ditch writing the chord sequences on guitar and see what you come up with on piano. I use piano for a lot of my more interesting progressions, but I'm also influenced a lot by baroque sounds.

[Maneachicken]

Yeah, i tend to spend about an hour on a Piano just playing around with weird chords and them when I return to the guitar everything just seems to click and appear more naturally.

 

Currently I guess im trying to move away from conventional rock - I mean I still write a riffy track here and there but im really exploring into incorperating Dance, Electronic and RnB orientated rhythms with rock, and switching guitar tracks with different instruments such as organs, arps and also playing with effects.

[haze015]

My advice would be not to ask in the muse forums and to find a forum dedicated to songwriter in and composing.

 

No offence to members its just that i think you can find alot more advice on songwriting outside of this forum.

 

Biggest pile of complete horseshit ever posted in K&T or any forum. Well done.

[Pig Man]

Yeah, i tend to spend about an hour on a Piano just playing around with weird chords and them when I return to the guitar everything just seems to click and appear more naturally.

 

Currently I guess im trying to move away from conventional rock - I mean I still write a riffy track here and there but im really exploring into incorperating Dance, Electronic and RnB orientated rhythms with rock, and switching guitar tracks with different instruments such as organs, arps and also playing with effects.

 

Same, I've been experimenting with this lately.

 

While we're at it, what does everyone use as a digital music program? (something like Garageband, but not as sucky). Is Reason good?

[cheddatom]

I've played about with Reason etc, but I prefer to record my ideas from guitar or bass and just use a drum machine.

[Simno]

Anvil Studio FTW!!

[cheddatom]

Lol, I genuinely used to use anvil studio when I was little - back when you had to go see a dodgy fat guy at a computer fair to get your hands on cubase 'cos torrents weren't awround.

[rockandroll]

I just thought i'd see what K&T would have to say about the art of good song writing, hopefully just sparking some discussion off, and hopefully to teach me some things and help me to be more of a skilled songwriter and others that may be interested.

 

Im also usless at good hooks and experimenting with chord progressions. Through listening to lots of Muse, Editors and other similar bands I find it hard to escape the influence of how their songs progress. It's also a case that if a chord 'sounds like it should come next' then it is best that that stays the case, however I always find i come to the end of a section - say a chorus, and find it just sounds too, I dunno, just not how I want it to sound (often it sounds too poppy, whereas i'd prefer to go into darker territory).

 

Also when it comes to songwriting, I can never (almost ever) get the verses to sound (its a hard way to describe) like they are each different with some variation, for example, whether it should just be bass and drums in the verses or being more guitar driven.

 

Any tips or just general discussion would be great, cheers!

 

Wear an eyepatch.

[Maneachicken]

I feel so dirty, I use Mixcraft!!

 

It's cheap and i'm only really demoing tracks but it's just easy to use.

 

Im really struggling for song ideas at the moment - I sort have got this intro riff to a track, sounds kind of like something the editors might do (I recently listened to the backroom) but when going into the verse, i don't know wether I should just leave the bass to carry the track with the drums and then in the second verse throw some cheap guitars over the top?

 

I might post it up on the plug thread in a bit to get K&T's advice.

 

And going back to the previous page, I write mostly everything on my own - I feel I can be more decisive that way - when it goes to the band situation, we are currently still very much a work in progress (a singer, me on two keyboards or acoustic and our drummer, hopefully recruiting a bassist soon) so for writing its unpheasable to jam with the band - when I demo the tracks (as we're at home from uni currently) I send them to our singer and drummer and they give feedback on things that might need changing.

[Dramatic Hammer]

I find that artificially limiting yourself in some way is the best way to keep everything coherent...

 

For examp. Stick with one idea and develop it, don't just bung another completely unrelated riff in when you change sections.

Personally I tend to write things as a set of parallel monophonic melodies, with the baseline coming last - the chords build themselves up and you can easily deconstruct/tweak the sequences...

[cheddatom]

that's an intewresting method jon!

[Lexical_Whale]

That's more or less how I like to work too, get the entire song written in some basic form and then take it to some other guys for them to add their parts to it. The problem I find with this though is possibly what you're finding in that it's sometimes difficult to get a feel for how the song will sound overall. That's why I think it's important to run through ideas with actual people (not even necessarily your band if they're unavailable, just grab a drummer or something). Ideas bounce around much more freely when you're actually in the room with someone and playing through stuff and you'll have much more energy than just sitting alone demoing stuff over your own multitracks or VSTs or whatever.

 

Make sure that you're not just throwing in elements for the sake of it as well. If a verse doesn't need guitars then don't just throw some in, if a song doesn't need a solo then don't put one in, if both your guitarists are just doubling up each other for most of the track then look into different inversions or dropping one out in sections etc etc etc If you stick to elements which actually contribute to your arrangement then you have a much more streamlined and less cluttered song.

[Simno]

Lol, I genuinely used to use anvil studio when I was little - back when you had to go see a dodgy fat guy at a computer fair to get your hands on cubase 'cos torrents weren't awround.

 

I still do!

Hehe. I haven't got my head around Cubase, need to download it again and be brave.