cheddatom Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I couldn't find one so I made one, merge if needs be. When i'm recording, I generally use what's available and most convinient. I'm a lazy recording engineer basically. I won't get the tape measure out when placing mics, and I use slightly random mic choices sometimes. The other day we recorded a rehersal, DI bass, guitar cab mic, kick, snare, 2 overheads. I put an AKG guitar cab mic on the kick drum, and a really shit kareoke style mic on the guitar cab. Both of these slightly weird choices worked better than ever! I've never had such a punchy guitar tone before. So, odd coincidences can give you new options. But, do I need to get the tape measure out? I've been thinking of trying the "recorder man technique" on drums. Do you follow a set of rules you know will work? Or do you just stick a mic in front of an instrument and press record? Or somewhere in between? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil. Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 ive a vague recollection of there being ones on certain software, and things like DSP, but i think we could do with a general recording thredd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 there's a "general mixing" but mixing =/= recording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dramatic Hammer Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I couldn't find one so I made one, merge if needs be. When i'm recording, I generally use what's available and most convinient. I'm a lazy recording engineer basically. I won't get the tape measure out when placing mics, and I use slightly random mic choices sometimes. The other day we recorded a rehersal, DI bass, guitar cab mic, kick, snare, 2 overheads. I put an AKG guitar cab mic on the kick drum, and a really shit kareoke style mic on the guitar cab. Both of these slightly weird choices worked better than ever! I've never had such a punchy guitar tone before. So, odd coincidences can give you new options. But, do I need to get the tape measure out? I've been thinking of trying the "recorder man technique" on drums. Do you follow a set of rules you know will work? Or do you just stick a mic in front of an instrument and press record? Or somewhere in between? We tend to just bung mics wherever - we'll get the tape measure out if we're adding distance mics to a cab or something but I personally think at this level a good source is more important than anal mic selection/placement. A shit snare is always going to sound like a shit snare, no matter how many thousands of pounds you throw at mics/outboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 yeh, but I am going for a "proffessional" sound IE I don't want shit to sound like a cheap demo (although I don't think my stuff does atm) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don'tPostThePear Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I always wanted to ask this: Is the tone what we can hear on the recording is actually comparable to the artists recording tone (the sound that came out of his/her amp while recording the final take) or the producers/mixers/whatever EQ the hell out of the things and add compression, reverb and stuff, or guitars are mostly raw? Is it considered as cheating to mess with the guitars sound or it is standard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 It depends entirely on who's producing/mixing the music. Generally you would want to get the sound right in the first place, but sometimes you might find you have to tweak it once other instruments get involved. Sometimes you just want to go wild to create a more interesting/weird tone. Sometimes the tone was shit but the guitarist's gone home/killed himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I always wanted to ask this: Is the tone what we can hear on the recording is actually comparable to the artists recording tone (the sound that came out of his/her amp while recording the final take) or the producers/mixers/whatever EQ the hell out of the things and add compression, reverb and stuff, or guitars are mostly raw? Is it considered as cheating to mess with the guitars sound or it is standard? EQ is basically colouring the sound, all mics colour the sound and how you place them affects that and it depends on the compressor and the settings. If you're EQing the hell out of something, something has gone very badly wrong, or it's for creative purposes. Nothing on a record sounds anything like how it did if you were actually there in the room unless you just recorded through a couple of ribbon mics in the middle of the room. Chedda, personally I'd just stick the mic somewhere without the tape measure at first and then work from there, better to use your ears than go by what should be mathematically correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 what about cheap v expensive mics? This mic I put on the guitar cap is a serious POS but it sounds amazing. One of my favorite ever guitar sounds was apparently recorded with a headphone taped to a 6" practice combo. Recording experts all have mics that cost £1000s!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I think you can rely on expensive mics to sound good on a whole range of sources, whereas cheap ones are less useful generally and might only work well on type of source, or need a lot of work after to make it sound good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 that makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dramatic Hammer Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 yeh, but I am going for a "proffessional" sound IE I don't want shit to sound like a cheap demo (although I don't think my stuff does atm) I think a lot of that 'professional sound' comes in the mixing stage tbh. Good mics/placement helps but as Haze says they're just colouring the source... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil. Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I've usually taken the more "Trial and error" approach to recording things, especially with drums... Set up the mics to start with and just see how they sound, if the bottom snare mic sounds a bit shit, move it around a little, try again. Ofcourse this is a time consuming process (or at least can be) and requires a spair set of hands generally, but it makes more sense in my mind than going by some holy "rule" to get amazing toan... Used a couple of Audio-Technica 4040 condensers placed underneath the bottom skins of two toms once, just to see how it would sound, and they turned out real nice and crisp, but really punchy too, as apose to using the more tom "specific" mics clipped to the top rim. I almost always whack at least 1 room mic in the setup too, then compress it just so it starts to pump a little and the cymbal whoosh begins to creep in a little, then have it fairly laid back in the mix and it really glues the whole sound together. As for Cheap VS. Expensive, if you have the money, spend it, if you dont, try with what gear you have, might turn out awesome, might turn out shit! I Haz a question. When micing drums up, has anyone taken XY overhead micing as apose to spaced pair overheads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 When micing drums up, has anyone taken XY overhead micing as apose to spaced pair overheads? Yeah, with a basic 4 mic setup, easier to deal with phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_man361 Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 do I need to get the tape measure out? I've been thinking of trying the "recorder man technique" on drums. Do you follow a set of rules you know will work? Or do you just stick a mic in front of an instrument and press record? Or somewhere in between? depends how much you've done in the past. i have my 'go to' drum mics setup and stuff for other uses, taking the room into consideration. then take a step into the control room, get your musician to play and get someone to fiddle the mics about a little to check the phase on them (say if you have 2 guitar cab mics, bringing one back and forward slightly will allow you to hear the phase sweep to get it into that sweet spot). at the end of the day, i wouldnt get out the measuring tape, i'd get out my ears have a listen to the sound in the room, consider what it sounds like and what you want to capture of it, go to the control room and make sure you're doing that. if you're not, move a mic or change model. I Haz a question. When micing drums up, has anyone taken XY overhead micing as apose to spaced pair overheads? yeh have done xy's as overheads, fairly regularly. depends what polar response you want from your overheads i guess... as haze says, its easier to get them in phase if your capsules are coincident, you should get no problems with phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lily93 Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I think a lot of that 'professional sound' comes in the mixing stage tbh. Good mics/placement helps but as Haze says they're just colouring the source... I disagree, a very high quality guitar rig, great guitar, great amp mantained properly, no buzz, hum, fret buzz, with a great player will get you most of the way there and....then mic choice, mic placement, gain staging it...... EQ will only be there to fit it in the mix against other instruments which will undoubtedly be within the same range frequency wise as the electric guitar. There is no one part of the process that puts that 'professional sound' on a recording, it's done from right from the beginning to the very end with decent quality gear with a competent tech, you mightn't have to break the bank, but whatever you use, you should know exactly how to use it and why you needed it in the first place. But you really do need a matched pair of humanoid audio receptors and you can't buy them in the shops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_man361 Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I disagree, a very high quality guitar rig, great guitar, great amp mantained properly, no buzz, hum, fret buzz, with a great player will get you most of the way there and....then mic choice, mic placement, gain staging it...... EQ will only be there to fit it in the mix against other instruments which will undoubtedly be within the same range frequency wise as the electric guitar. There is no one part of the process that puts that 'professional sound' on a recording, it's done from right from the beginning to the very end with decent quality gear with a competent tech, you mightn't have to break the bank, but whatever you use, you should know exactly how to use it and why you needed it in the first place. But you really do need a matched pair of humanoid audio receptors and you can't buy them in the shops. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 You don't need the best amp & guitars in the world, just got to know how to use what you've got to it's best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil. Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 You can make a shit sounding amp and guitar sound pretty awesome once it is recorded, just like if you had an amazing amp and guitar and you processed it badly once it was recorded it would sound shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dramatic Hammer Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I disagree, a very high quality guitar rig, great guitar, great amp mantained properly, no buzz, hum, fret buzz, with a great player will get you most of the way there All irrelevant... The buzz/hum etc to a lesser extent. A guitarist has their sound (which ideally already slots into the mix as it is) - who's to say what's a professional guitar rig and what isn't? and....then mic choice, mic placement, gain staging it...... EQ will only be there to fit it in the mix against other instruments which will undoubtedly be within the same range frequency wise as the electric guitar. There is no one part of the process that puts that 'professional sound' on a recording, it's done from right from the beginning to the very end with decent quality gear with a competent tech, you mightn't have to break the bank, but whatever you use, you should know exactly how to use it and why you needed it in the first place. But you really do need a matched pair of humanoid audio receptors and you can't buy them in the shops. I'm assuming you realise mixing is more than eq/levels! Anyway, given the budgets that we're working on, mic choice and preamp choices are likely to be highly limited and my point was/is that mastering advanced production techniques is going to give a more 'professional' sound than spending hours measuring mic distances:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 23, 2010 Author Share Posted February 23, 2010 There is no one part of the process that puts that 'professional sound' on a recording, it's done from right from the beginning to the very end with decent quality gear with a competent tech, you mightn't have to break the bank, but whatever you use, you should know exactly how to use it and why you needed it in the first place. I was talking about that "shitty demo" sound. You can use the best gear in the world, set up in the best way possible, record the best takes, then have no time for any mixing and it comes out with that shitty demo sound. Have you ever been to a studio and done 5 songs in a day or something equally stupid? It came out with a shitty demo sound. Ever listened to a local radio un-signed show?!? So assuming you know what I mean now, what's the best way to avoid shitty, and head for "polished". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted February 23, 2010 Author Share Posted February 23, 2010 at the end of the day, i wouldnt get out the measuring tape, i'd get out my ears have a listen to the sound in the room, consider what it sounds like and what you want to capture of it, go to the control room and make sure you're doing that. if you're not, move a mic or change model. One of my big problems is a lack of control room. I have to rely on headphones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_man361 Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 I was talking about that "shitty demo" sound. You can use the best gear in the world, set up in the best way possible, record the best takes, then have no time for any mixing and it comes out with that shitty demo sound. Have you ever been to a studio and done 5 songs in a day or something equally stupid? It came out with a shitty demo sound. Ever listened to a local radio un-signed show?!? So assuming you know what I mean now, what's the best way to avoid shitty, and head for "polished". you sure the mics were set up totally right? the sound even before much mixing of a properly tracked, properly mic'd session can be pretty fucking good (if a little quiet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lily93 Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 I'm assuming you realise mixing is more than eq/levels! And sometimes it is........putting endless fx on something because it was approached with the recording technique of ''stick a 57 on geetarz and snare and pan teh overheads all the way'' this is normally the case, you don't need to measure the length the diaphragm is from the source just because some guy that produced some band's albums some number of years ago had that approach, he was probably doing that just for the recall option... Wasn't layla and countless other memorable classics recorded on things like fender champs. A shit guitar through a shit amp is always going to sound like a shit guitar, through a shit amp, doesn't happen these days as much, there are very good affordable amps and a 4x12 isn't need in the studio, but it still is fun to tear up I don't think mastering is really going to make a song sound more professional or polished but it wouldn't do it any harm either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_man361 Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 aye, mastering should be the last choice call for sound quality improvements - since its the final process in a songs progression Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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