Burning_October Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Okay, some people here are saying that the loudness war shouldn't make something "unlistenable", but for me it kinda does. Californication is a good example, it's clipping all over the place and lacks any dynamics whatsoever, which detracts from the songs. Make Believe is another good example. It's such a clean, compressed pile of mush that no emotion gets through. And those songs needed emotion, otherwise they're just simple little pop ditties with no substance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Okay, some people here are saying that the loudness war shouldn't make something "unlistenable", but for me it kinda does. Californication is a good example, it's clipping all over the place and lacks any dynamics whatsoever, which detracts from the songs. Make Believe is another good example. It's such a clean, compressed pile of mush that no emotion gets through. And those songs needed emotion, otherwise they're just simple little pop ditties with no substance. I was going to say something similar, I got through one half of one song of Californication and I didn't want to hear anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futurellama Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 I have noticed this with BHaR, but it only actually stops me from listening to one song: MoTP, which makes my ears bleed. And I'm half-deaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I find it especially noticeable since running all my music through MP3Gain a while back. This analsyses the volume of each song in my MP3 collection, then tweaks the volume up or down in order to match a reference volume level. The result? The Beatles now sound just as loud as Muse, or Nirvana or AC/DC when played back through my PC or iPod. The loudness of an album becomes irrelevent and the only result of the loudness war for me is the degredation in sound quality which results from it.  I can now drive along in my car and not have to keep tweaking the volume up and down when an 80s song comes on in-between a couple of recent tracks. However, once everything is the same volume, the sheer clarity and sound quality of albums such as Nevermind (Nirvana) and Parklife (Blur) is so noticeable and fantastic compared with the muffled, distorted and flat sound from more recent stuff.    Awful sounding album, people just like wanking over the drums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trippynet Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I didn't say it was to everyone's tastes and many prefer the more basic and grungey style of Bleach. But then again, I wasn't making a distinction about the sound of the band/album. It was about the sound quality of the album in general. No matter how much some people may dislike the rather overproduced sound of Nevermind, it's right up near the top of the list as far as good mastering and sound quality are concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no3chris Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 right man think of it this way, do any of them sound like death magnetic.. NO ! so somthing is going right, lmao loudness war isnt going to go away, louder is better! hardly anyone anymore (on average ) listens to music on a hifi, its either an ipod or in a club = loudness war if you want to feel the dynamics and wank on the artists skills go see them live Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I didn't say it was to everyone's tastes and many prefer the more basic and grungey style of Bleach. But then again, I wasn't making a distinction about the sound of the band/album. It was about the sound quality of the album in general. No matter how much some people may dislike the rather overproduced sound of Nevermind, it's right up near the top of the list as far as good mastering and sound quality are concerned. Hardly, just an overhyped album in the anti loudness world based on the fact the drums are far too loud to start with! It's not a good example of mastering, production, mixing, anything really, it really is an example of song writing being better than the recording. In Utero though... only Nirvana album worth mentioning in a thread like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trippynet Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 right man think of it this way, do any of them sound like death magnetic.. NO ! Correct. BHAR sounds even worse than Death Magnetic to my ears and DM is quite a bad sounding album as it is. so somthing is going right, lmao I really question the mentality of anyone who thinks that "something going right" constitutes full-scale static, digital clipping and drums that have been so heavily compressed and limited that they sound like someone in the background punching a cushion. loudness war isnt going to go away, louder is better! You may be right, however the loudness war isn't the only thing going away. Sales are going away too as people grow tired more quickly of fatiguing and compressed sound and hence are less likely to rush out and buy the album after hearing a few tracks. The industry is keen on blaming everything on piracy, but there's plenty of other reasons for falling sales, one of which is the loudness war. You're right about louder being better though, which is why all hifis, iPods and other such music playback devices come equipped with a nifty gadget called a "volume control". If you turn it up, the music gets louder! Fancy that! If you turn it right the way up, the music becomes really loud. And the volume control knob does all of this whilst retaining all the power, dynamics and quality of the music. You don't need to crush the living daylights out of the music during mastering in order to listen to music as loud as you like. hardly anyone anymore (on average ) listens to music on a hifi, its either an ipod or in a club What does that have to do with anything? Even when I'm in the car listening to my iPod, BHAR still sounds appalling compared with other music on my iPod. Stuff mastered 10 or 20 years ago is still perfectly loud enough once the volume knob is tweaked upwards (or once modern stuff has been attenuated by running it through MP3Gain). Why should the fact that more people use iPods mean that the deliberate destruction of modern music becomes a perfectly acceptable and condonable practice? Meanwhile when I'm in a club and some oldies songs come on such as Queen's Don't Stop Me Now, it's still nice and loud and I still have to shout to be heard over it. How is that any different to newer stuff? if you want to feel the dynamics and wank on the artists skills go see them live I do. I've seen a good handful of live bands this year and have many dozens of gig ticket stubs sat at home in a drawer from over the last handful of years. Unfortunately, bands like Muse only tour now and again in the UK, tickets are very expensive and they tend to sell out within minutes. Hence seeing a band live isn't always possible. And for the months and years in between, what do I listen to then? That's supposed to be what the albums are for. I shouldn't have to wait years at a time before being able to listen to my favourite bands without my ears bleeding from all the distortion and clipping that's been inflicted all over the recordings. Do note that I'm not being ultra anal here. I think that Origin of Symmetry for example sounds absolutely fine to my ears, despite also being mastered for loudness (as all modern music is). Have you ever listened to OoS and thought "This is way too quiet" though? I doubt it! The problem isn't just that the volume has gone up, it's that the mastering engineers and record labels don't know when to stop or when to say that enough is enough. OoS is still a loud album and isn't much quieter than BHAR, yet that just wasn't enough, so they squash the music tighter and tighter against the loudness ceiling until it's an almost unlistenable flat wall of distorted sound. Then they blame piracy when the sales start falling. Haze: We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I've never found Nevermind's drums to be too loud to my ears and I still find it to be one of the best mixed and mastered albums around, even if the music is a little too polished for its own good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofsaturdaynight Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 “if you want to feel the dynamics and wank on the artists skills go see them live” There have been plenty of times I come away from a live gig and thought – good show & great atmosphere but it’s a pity the sound was piss. I have even thought - well if I wanted to hear the music right – I should have listened to the album (maybe a live one). It depends on the band and the venue. If now the albums sound shit - it’s game over. “hardly anyone anymore (on average ) listens to music on a hifi, its either an ipod or in a club” this is bound to have an impact – if someone has never heard music as good as it can sound, then why would they care. If you (not you personally ) have only listened to MP3’s through a dock with shit sounding speakers, then the loudness war will not matter - not yet. I guess in 10 years time some of the loudness crap coming out now will be re-released – remastered (or what ever the guys in white coats do – well they probably wear jeans now but you know what I mean). It will be Hi-Def sound and we will pay for it again, to hear it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 right man think of it this way, do any of them sound like death magnetic.. NO ! so somthing is going right, lmao loudness war isnt going to go away, louder is better! Your right I have a big better nob on my stereo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofsaturdaynight Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 right man think of it this way, do any of them sound like death magnetic.. NO ! so somthing is going right, lmao loudness war isnt going to go away, louder is better! hardly anyone anymore (on average ) listens to music on a hifi, its either an ipod or in a club = loudness war if you want to feel the dynamics and wank on the artists skills go see them live if you want to feel the dynamics, buy a good album from the 70's death magnetic overall sounds good - not HiFi good but bursting out at you. I guess that because of the upfront in your face sound, something had to be sacrificed. It is hard to listen to the full album in 1 sitting. And with headphones on it sound like shite, you can actually hear it's distorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian KEEEEM Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 I absolutely cannot listen to Assassin or map of the problematique on the album. It's a turnoff, everything sounds like mush hahaha. I have to go look on youtube for a live performance, and even with crap youtube quality it sounds better to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucidity Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 I absolutely cannot listen to Assassin or map of the problematique on the album. They're not that bad that they become impossible to listen to.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 They're not that bad that they become impossible to listen to.... For me they're not impossible to listen to, it's just they sound so...incomplete and flat. Not very satisfying to the ear. Go from a Rage song and then to Assassin, and you'll see what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nohopeinfear Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Muse go upto 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trippynet Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 They're not that bad that they become impossible to listen to.... Hmm, I dunno. Assassin is an iffy one, but MotP to me is just unlistenable. 4 minutes of having my ears bombarded with a wall of badly distorted racket (apart from the first 7 seconds). It came on in the car the other day when my iPod was on shuffle and after 2 minutes of cringing at the awfulness of it, I just had to reach over and skip the track. The rest of the album does sounds pretty flat and lifeless, but MotP and Supermassive Black Hole are pretty much unlistenable to my ears and are a step above the rest of the album with regards to their terrible mastering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucidity Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 So are there version of these songs that aren't supposedly destroyed? Because I don't think I'm fully aware of the problem here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trippynet Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 There's versions of Knights of Cydonia, Supermassive Black Hole and Exo-Politics that haven't been ruined as these songs are also present in un-butchered form on various versions of Guitar Hero. I have them and the difference in quality between them and the album versions of the songs is very, very noticeable - especially for Knights of Cydonia. Unfortunately, no such versions exist for a lot of the other songs - including MotP. Which is a pity as it's otherwise a good song. Unfortunately, it isn't one that suits Guitar Hero or Rock Band that well. I've also currently not had any success in tracking down a vinyl rip of the song to see if it's any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phill Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 There's versions of Knights of Cydonia, Supermassive Black Hole and Exo-Politics that haven't been ruined as these songs are also present in un-butchered form on various versions of Guitar Hero. I have them and the difference in quality between them and the album versions of the songs is very, very noticeable - especially for Knights of Cydonia. Unfortunately, no such versions exist for a lot of the other songs - including MotP. Which is a pity as it's otherwise a good song. Unfortunately, it isn't one that suits Guitar Hero or Rock Band that well. I've also currently not had any success in tracking down a vinyl rip of the song to see if it's any better. couldn't link me to these, could you please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofsaturdaynight Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 There's versions of Knights of Cydonia, Supermassive Black Hole and Exo-Politics that haven't been ruined as these songs are also present in un-butchered form on various versions of Guitar Hero. I have them and the difference in quality between them and the album versions of the songs is very, very noticeable - especially for Knights of Cydonia. Unfortunately, no such versions exist for a lot of the other songs - including MotP. Which is a pity as it's otherwise a good song. Unfortunately, it isn't one that suits Guitar Hero or Rock Band that well. I've also currently not had any success in tracking down a vinyl rip of the song to see if it's any better. there is no vinyl. If there was - it could sound a little better but when ripped it would be the same anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 I don't think Muse vinyl albums have had their own mastering, I think they just use the CD master with the volume reduced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trippynet Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 You're probably right, but even that should reduce the huge amounts of clipping that are present. I ripped my vinyl copy of the Chili's By The Way a while back and it's just as compressed as the CD version, however it does sound a bit less harsh due to the fact that it at least doesn't clip everywhere like on the CD. It's a small step in the right direction! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burning_October Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 The last 3 Chili Peppers albums have possibly the worst mastering ever. EDIT: Also, yeah, can you point us to the GH3 Knights, SMBH, and Exo? I remember playing KOC on Guitar Hero III and being blown away by how many mare layers there were than I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don'tPostThePear Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 I bought a proper soundcard and some ok headphones (Sennheiser HD555) and realized that KoC and MotP sounds absolutely horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Tarts Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 Anyone else think it's a shame that no one asked about this for Muse Questions a while ago? I'd really like to know the guys opinion on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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