cheddatom Posted June 23, 2009 Author Share Posted June 23, 2009 It just doesn't bother me. I sometimes worry that I have bad ears, or i'm just a shit listener. I still manage to make stuff that people like though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 The whole clipping thing is a confusing issue, was reading an another forum about old/cheap CD players that clip at 0.0dB and modern ones can compensate for that and all sorts of other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doog Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 It's a massive, aggressive drum sound. Each to their own, express your opinion etc fine. I just get very annoyed when people tell me "It's full of digital clipping" or "it distorts your stereo" which are both factual statements, and both entirely erronneous. it's not distorted all the way through, but seriously - go back and listen to the drums during the chorus of the day that never comes. as haze said, the snare sounds particularly bad. in fact I just went back and listened to that part of the cd on my hi-fi, and it absolutely does distort. no question at all. yes, if we disregard the lack of dynamic range and its loudness it sounds better, it was recorded with better sounding gear (though some might get on teh analogues) erm... you do realise you just effectively said "if we disregard all the stuff that makes it sound bad, it sounds better" don't you? The whole clipping thing is a confusing issue, was reading an another forum about old/cheap CD players that clip at 0.0dB and modern ones can compensate for that and all sorts of other things. I was taught to set a margin limit of between -0.3 and -0.6dB during mastering to prevent it clipping on any system for that very reason incidentally, from a purely sonic point of view, I agree that load and reload are the two best-sounding albums metallica have produced. iirc garage inc was also pretty sweet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bshuker Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 yep, totally agree load, reload and garage inc are probably the best sounding metallica records. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no3chris Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 yep, totally agree load, reload and garage inc are probably the best sounding metallica records. definetely ,garage inc .. cover album.. oddly encompasses their tone the best, perfect recording, its brilliant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phill Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 turn the page is quality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 29, 2009 Author Share Posted June 29, 2009 yadddayadddayadda I'm not going to go back and listen to it because I don't like metallica. I can guarantee there's nothing on that CD that plays over 0db and my music system can handle that. There's a difference between distortion added intentionally in the studio, and distortion occurring at home because of bad practice in the studio. The distortion on DM is the former. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doog Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 sorry, but you claimed that "it's full of digital clipping" and "it distorts" were erroneous factual statements. now you're trying to point out the difference between types of distortion to try to keep your argument alive? you do realise that a cd doesn't have to exceed 0db to distort, don't you? seriously, I don't give a crap whether you like the cd or not, go and listen to the chorus of the day that never comes, and come back and tell me what you think. tbh if you still try to claim there's no distortion then quite frankly you have shit ears. you're literally the *only* person I've ever encountered who claims there's no distortion on the cd, and I had a pretty long discussion about it on another board (which led to me downloading the guitar hero version) with several other users there who all said exactly the same thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 you do realise that a cd doesn't have to exceed 0db to distort, don't you? Erm, you'll find it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doog Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 not if the mastering process induces it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 not if the mastering process induces it Only if it hits 0dB, if there's distortion below that, it's not the CD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 30, 2009 Author Share Posted June 30, 2009 sorry, but you claimed that "it's full of digital clipping" and "it distorts" were erroneous factual statements. now you're trying to point out the difference between types of distortion to try to keep your argument alive? you do realise that a cd doesn't have to exceed 0db to distort, don't you? seriously, I don't give a crap whether you like the cd or not, go and listen to the chorus of the day that never comes, and come back and tell me what you think. tbh if you still try to claim there's no distortion then quite frankly you have shit ears. you're literally the *only* person I've ever encountered who claims there's no distortion on the cd, and I had a pretty long discussion about it on another board (which led to me downloading the guitar hero version) with several other users there who all said exactly the same thing Like I said, there is distortion there in the mix. Distortion has been applied to individual tracks in the studio. I do it quite a lot. There is no digital clipping occurring on playback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doog Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Only if it hits 0dB, if there's distortion below that, it's not the CD. it could happen if you make the absolute rookie error of mastering in 24 or 32 bit format, although there's next to no chance that that'd ever happen - and if it did the guy who mastered the cd would be out of work very quickly but besides that, I'll just come back to what I said earlier - I was taught to master to -0.3dB at the absolute most so that this never becomes an issue cheddatom - if distortion had actually been applied to the tracks during the mix, don't you think the distortion would be present on the tracks throughout the song as opposed to when it's loud? furthermore, I haven't even said anything about the origin of the distortion, but I can't find any explanation for it other than the levels exceeding 0dB at some point in the mixing/mastering process. I certainly don't buy the theory that it's deliberate, not for a second Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no3chris Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 i say lets agree to disagree, and stop wasting our time talking about the worst album ever. forget the recording process, the songs are fuckin' terrible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 it could happen if you make the absolute rookie error of mastering in 24 or 32 bit format, although there's next to no chance that that'd ever happen - and if it did the guy who mastered the cd would be out of work very quickly but besides that, I'll just come back to what I said earlier - I was taught to master to -0.3dB at the absolute most so that this never becomes an issue Actually, you master in 24/32 bit, then dither to 16. n00b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 cheddatom - if distortion had actually been applied to the tracks during the mix, don't you think the distortion would be present on the tracks throughout the song as opposed to when it's loud? furthermore, I haven't even said anything about the origin of the distortion, but I can't find any explanation for it other than the levels exceeding 0dB at some point in the mixing/mastering process. I certainly don't buy the theory that it's deliberate, not for a second Don't you think the distortion applied during the mix could be reacting to the dynamics of the waveforms? Don't you think there's distortion on the kick and snare all the way through the album? There's no way they let it exceed 0dB at the mix down or at the mastering stage. There is a hell of a lot of limiting going on, and it's a very brash sounding album, but there's nothing above 0dB on the CD, and they wouldn't have let that happen before it got to the CD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doog Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Actually, you master in 24/32 bit, then dither to 16. n00b flaw in my explanation I meant if you forgot to dither (which reminds me that, for my final year sound production project, I applied dithering but forgot to apply the noise reduction option as well so there was a little bit of noise left on the cd. still got pretty good mark for it though, so it can't have been that noticable) Don't you think the distortion applied during the mix could be reacting to the dynamics of the waveforms? it's possible yes, but it's also possible for that to happen unintentionally Don't you think there's distortion on the kick and snare all the way through the album? no I don't, absolutely not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 olol. I'd better actually listen to it if I want to carry on arguing then, just to be sure. EDIT: I'm not going to listen to the peice of shit. The fact is, there's lots of distortion going on in that album, none of it's created by playback through your stereo, it was all created in the studio, none of it is that horrible type of distortion known as "digital clipping". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doog Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 look I went back and listened to it, and the distortion I heard is not consistent with any kind of effect that you'd want on any track. why the hell would you set up an effect on the drum kit so that it distorts during loud fills, which are precisely the moments when you more than likely want as clean a sound as possible? the drums don't distort at all during the verse, and there's very little distortion on any of the other tracks. it ONLY happens when there's a lot of loud stuff going on at the same time, and it doesn't fit with how any previous album I've ever heard has been mixed tbh if you're not even willing to go back and listen to it then I'm willing to just ignore your "facts" as the witterings of an idiot talking out of his arse and hilariously petrified at the prospect of being wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted July 3, 2009 Author Share Posted July 3, 2009 My above post states the only facts I am stating. I don't even think you're arguing with that? Or do you think there is distortion created by bits on the actual CD above 0db which create digital clipping through your stereo on playback? I ripped the CD when this argument was first going on(when the CD came out), and inspected it in Cubase. Just as I thought, it's impossible to burn anything above 0dB on a CD mastered to red book standard. The waveforms are VERY compressed, and almost flat in parts. This is because it's been heavily limited. Some limiters can be "overdriven" creating a distorted sound. This is likely to be what you're hearing at the peaks. We're on the internet, so you can make this argument never ending if you like. I'm not wrong, or scared of being wrong. I don't give a toss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 The waveforms are VERY compressed, and almost flat in parts. This is because it's been heavily limited. Some limiters can be "overdriven" creating a distorted sound. This is likely to be what you're hearing at the peaks. That's exactly what is going on, if you're using limiting, nothing will go beyond a certain volume, so nothing can clip afterwards. Turn the input gain down, no distortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doog Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 My above post states the only facts I am stating. I don't even think you're arguing with that? Or do you think there is distortion created by bits on the actual CD above 0db which create digital clipping through your stereo on playback? I ripped the CD when this argument was first going on(when the CD came out), and inspected it in Cubase. Just as I thought, it's impossible to burn anything above 0dB on a CD mastered to red book standard. The waveforms are VERY compressed, and almost flat in parts. This is because it's been heavily limited. Some limiters can be "overdriven" creating a distorted sound. This is likely to be what you're hearing at the peaks. We're on the internet, so you can make this argument never ending if you like. I'm not wrong, or scared of being wrong. I don't give a toss. all I said is that it distorts in places, and you came back and told me that I (and anyone else who said the same about the distortion) was "empirically wrong". then when I went back and verified that it does distort in places, you started coming up with different types of distortion to obscure the point. now, oddly, you've come up with an explanation that backs up my original point, which makes me wonder why you were even arguing with me to start with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montgomery Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 ah man I can't wait to get my mbox in. I have been away from protools for too long. once I get that sucker in, its remix time. Up until now, all of my mixing has been done on the school's KROKs, but i just bought a set of adam A7's. That will be a treat. First thing I will do is remix the drums of an old band recording, then I will retrack the guitars with my oranges and mix those, then remix the old bass, vocals and piano. It is going to sound sick. I will post it when I finish it. Hopefully it will be done in 2 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_man361 Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 That's exactly what is going on, if you're using limiting, nothing will go beyond a certain volume, so nothing can clip afterwards. Turn the input gain down, no distortion. actually, not entirely true.. but good enough for jokes. intersample peaks can still occur, depending how advanced your limiter is http://www.gearslutz.com/board/tips-techniques/334385-intersample-peaks.html this may be of interest to the more nerdy tech people around here. i imagine that there might be some intersample clipping going on in that metallica album, due to the level to which it is limited. ah man I can't wait to get my mbox in. I have been away from protools for too long. once I get that sucker in, its remix time. Up until now, all of my mixing has been done on the school's KROKs, but i just bought a set of adam A7's. That will be a treat. First thing I will do is remix the drums of an old band recording, then I will retrack the guitars with my oranges and mix those, then remix the old bass, vocals and piano. It is going to sound sick. I will post it when I finish it. Hopefully it will be done in 2 weeks. ace might need to be careful with the bass on the A7's depending on how 'hifi' your KROK's were, you might find it slightly weak, though that could be adjusted with the knobs at the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 I'm fucking sick of the band-wagon mentality surrounding the sound of this album. It's the best sounding Metallica album. It sounds better than everything they've done before. Less compression overall would have been better, but it still sounds fucking good and before any of you morons without whammies say "bbbbbut it's distorted" IT'S A METAL ALBUM and it does not cause "distortion on your HiFi" unless it's a peice of shit. excuse me, bandwagon mentality? am I not allowed to trust my own ears now? if you listen to the mix from the cd and then listen to the mix that they used for guitar hero the difference is like night and day. .....loooong protracted argument where I explain the different kinds of distortion used intentionally..... all I said is that it distorts in places, and you came back and told me that I (and anyone else who said the same about the distortion) was "empirically wrong". then when I went back and verified that it does distort in places, you started coming up with different types of distortion to obscure the point. now, oddly, you've come up with an explanation that backs up my original point, which makes me wonder why you were even arguing with me to start with? Your original point was that the guitar hero version of the album is noticably different to the general release version. We agreed on that. My original point was about the fact that there's no "digital clipping" on the album, the album does not make your HiFi distort, and there is a big band wagon upon which a load of "musos" have jumped, which has perpetuated these myths. I've never used the word empirically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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