Album Eight: Simulation Theory

[MartianSpaghettiRider]

If it were just an act to give the band a little cool factor... wouldn't that basically be intentionally spreading "fake news"?

 

That would mean he never saw that as a problem, and it would show Matt's most immature side, because I always felt he just spread them for the sake of looking controversial and stirring arguements around the band without caring if he was believed or not.

Although I can't help but laugh a bit whenever I happen to watch a conspiracy theory video out of curiosity and see Muse taken as a band rallying the world against "shadow powers" and such. No sane person would believe Matt sings about those themes without a trace of irony, no matter how small it would probably be, or how terrible his lyrics may be.

 

EDIT: Oh, and I can't see how a sane person would believe a man wearing Gucci bombers and neon glasses as he sings about all of that, unless you could consider the "in-character" theory (which is also quite plausible to me).

Edited March 4, 2018 by MartianSpaghettiRider

[serpentsatellite]

tbh, I believed conspiracy theories were something people kind of just did for fun and out of boredom.

It never occurred to me until recently that people really believed in shadow governments and liberal-funded kiddie sex dungeons in pizza parlors. It was just kind of like the half alien baby on the front page of the Enquirer.

Now it scares the shit out of me to know people are deadly serious about this stuff, and it's suddenly important to not dismiss that people might believe the crazy nonsense they read.

[MartianSpaghettiRider]

tbh, I believed conspiracy theories were something people kind of just did for fun and out of boredom.

It never occurred to me until recently that people really believed in shadow governments and liberal-funded kiddie sex dungeons in pizza parlors. It was just kind of like the half alien baby on the front page of the Enquirer.

Now it scares the shit out of me to know people are deadly serious about this stuff, and it's suddenly important to not dismiss that people might believe the crazy nonsense they read.

 

Well, I feel you, even if I don't necessarily share the same amounts of concern as yours. It's like a game or a joke taken too far, isn't it?

However, I think there are some parametres to be taken into consideration when talking about that stuff. The main, most crucial one could be how those theories are relatable to the events of everyday life. For example, if we're talking about theories claiming black people are all part of a conspiracy to erase the white, then I completely agree with you, because it's a case that could create an extremely dangerous, violent situation on a sociopolitical level. The black people whom a paranoid theory as such is centered around are depicted with pretty much realistic features, in fact, and we've already seen how that could enable xenophobes, racist, white suprematists, Nazis, etc. to commit violent acts against them. It's never been funny or harmlessly bonkers, in short words.

If we're talking about a theory like the ones you briefly exposed in your first paragraph, instead, they may come out as totally ridiculous indeed, because of their scattered and heterogeneous elements, or supernatural, esoteric ones (see the "Lizard People" theory, which Unnatural Selection is based upon).

I don't know if I've explained myself very well, but I hope so.

[serpentsatellite]

Just so we're clear, the government funded pedophile sex dungeon/pizza parlor is something a significant amount of people believed, and was talked about widely on Infowars and even televised on Fox News.

It led to a guy firing a gun in the place trying to be a "hero" and NASA having to release an official statement that there's no sex camps on Mars, and yet people still hold rallies about it.

 

It's important to understand there's not really any bottom to the crazy stuff masses of people will believe.

[panikstacey]

I still cannot figure out for the life of me how did a Chris Cornell and Timbaland collaboration happen...

[Hat]

Because it's what Chris wanted to do.

[MartianSpaghettiRider]

Just so we're clear, the government funded pedophile sex dungeon/pizza parlor is something a significant amount of people believed, and was talked about widely on Infowars and even televised on Fox News.

It led to a guy firing a gun in the place trying to be a "hero" and NASA having to release an official statement that there's no sex camps on Mars, and yet people still hold rallies about it.

 

It's important to understand there's not really any bottom to the crazy stuff masses of people will believe.

 

I didn't know that. That's totally messed up. Still, it proves that no completely sane person would believe things like that. I mean, sex camps on Mars? That's just nuts.

But, you can actually force a piece of fake news down your audience's throats and make them accept that if you do it "the right way", indeed.

Edited March 6, 2018 by MartianSpaghettiRider

[serpentsatellite]

While I'm not sure about the numbers on the Mars one, several polls at the time registered 49% of registered Republicans believed that Hillary Clinton, George Soros and other high ranking Democrats were involved in a satanic child molestation cult based out of a DC pizza restaurant.

 

It's comforting to say no sane individual would believe such things... but is it more comforting to say around a quarter of a country's population is mentally unstable?

 

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/pizzagate-anatomy-of-a-fake-news-scandal-w511904

[forevermusic]

That Trump Tweet of Matt's actually surprised me, tbh, because Matt's prior communications were just along the lines of "it'll be fine, Congress won't let anything terrible happen" which shows his incredibly naïve understanding of American politics and the damaging forces that led to the election of Trump in the first place.

 

And also Matt's clear nationalist stances, which he was talking about in interviews as recently as last year. (And I suppose it's hard for me to think of nationalists as anything other than far right, right now.)

Brexit, for example, became heavily anti-immigrant in nature for a lot of the population, the same as the nationalist movement in the US has been heavily protectionist (and bigoted.)

So, seeing Matt call Trump a Nazi made me wonder if he was really not self aware (or educated) enough to see that one couldn't be pro-Brexit (for example) with caveats like "well, except for THAT" part...

Sometimes you have to say that things aren't worth the cost, no matter how much you agree with one of the parts of the whole, or admit that you're supporting something ugly out of selfishness.

And this is what completely went wrong with the US; the checks and balances failed and people embraced some really evil beliefs.

 

(The "king" line in DD is a bit scary now that Trump has suggested it would be cool for the US to move to a "ruler for life" system...)

 

But yeah, mostly I'm just a bit in awe of how un self-aware telling people not to buy into "thought contagion" is coming from someone who's dealt in conspiracy and anti-government themes for a very long time.

There's probably better examples but the big nationalist pop/rock star in a UK perspective that I can think of Morrissey, who has backed Brexit with big enthusiasm, praised Farage, slagged off multiculturalism, and was unhappy UKIP failed to elect a very anti-Islam candidate as leader. Unless I missed something, has Matt - someone who backed Scottish independence, for instance - done anything on that scale?

 

Maybe I'm aware of the whole placing of people being away from the similarities between the two movements because I know people who voted for Brexit but thought Trump's election was a shit idea, or people who think there's more degrees of separation between the two events. I would also say that there's a number of people out there that didn't vote for Brexit because of immigration, but given that's the topic that did as much to lead to it, they are effectively wedded together as themes, and its hard not to let that influence it.

Meh, I always thought that all the conspiracy and dystopian stuff were just part of an act to build a certain image of himself and thus appear "cool" to the musical world. Many love to buy into the "eccentric rockstar" cliché, so that wouldn't surprise me.

On the other hand, he also seemed genuinely fascinated with those sort of things, not to the point of believing them, but rather using them in a heavily ironic fashion in his lyrics to "mock" them and point them out as paranoid and manic constructs. Maybe it's just me, but that's part of the appeal that BHAR had when I listened to it for the first time, coupled with the great music, of course.

I think once the conspiracy stuff could have been interesting, and I do recall Matt once saying he brushed up on them so he'd have more interesting shit to say in interviews.

 

But of course, I would say a lot of that came before we knew more about both the people who spread these theories, and the people who consume them to the point of believing in them. Which has definitely ruined it.

[MartianSpaghettiRider]

Nah, Matt just advocated for national indipendencies without actually being xenophobic or racist. I don't see him being like that (you never really know, though...).

On the other hand, I think it's quite interesting: it may work as a reminder that advocating for "some" sociopolitical ideas and thesis doesn't really imply embracing "some" others, but even for me it's rather difficult to reconcile with that, because some associations of ideas seem "commonly proved" so much by now. It's very easy and (maybe too much) convenient to come to the equation: nationalist = national indipendency, xenophobia, racism, restricted civil or free expression rights, etc.

[LoganMH]

Matt’s stated positions on Brexit and Scottish Independence were entirely inkeeping with comments he'd made about the appeal of direct democracy, decentralisation of power etc. - there are many people with similar concerns who don’t have racist sympathies. It would’ve been much more surprising to me if he’d expressed support the other way.

 

Saying that, if I started making "final solution" references in my latest song, I'd expect to be grilled in interviews and have a more serious response prepared

[sargenoodles]

Couple new Instagram posts. Matt's back at it with the acoustic says an acoustic track for real this time and he's still trying haha.

Also flipping through a book of VHS cover art so the album will probably have the same theme throughout aesthetically.

[heyjackk]

Couple new Instagram posts. Matt's back at it with the acoustic says an acoustic track for real this time and he's still trying haha.

Also flipping through a book of VHS cover art so the album will probably have the same theme throughout aesthetically.

 

I'm honestly fine with them keeping this aesthetic. I quite like all the neon lights and brightness after how dull Drones was.

[Jobby]

Hopes: COD, Screenager, Bedroom Acoustics, Nature_1, Recess, FAWY, Soldier’s Poem

 

Expectations: BTEC Unintended

 

I'm honestly fine with them keeping this aesthetic. I quite like all the neon lights and brightness after how dull Drones was.

 

I’d agree if it was a style that fit the music and didn’t feel like they were just using some free online template.

[sargenoodles]

Unrelated, but i noticed after they played Agitated on the last stream, I realized he's been singing the lyrics from the Newton Abbot demo for the second verse for a few years now. Kinda neat.

[Jobby]

He’s pretty much just singing gibberish either way tbh, like w/ Yes Please.

[altbecky]

Matt’s stated positions on Brexit and Scottish Independence were entirely inkeeping with comments he'd made about the appeal of direct democracy, decentralisation of power etc. - there are many people with similar concerns who don’t have racist sympathies. It would’ve been much more surprising to me if he’d expressed support the other way.

 

Saying that, if I started making "final solution" references in my latest song, I'd expect to be grilled in interviews and have a more serious response prepared

 

All of this. So much.

[sargenoodles]

He’s pretty much just singing gibberish either way tbh, like w/ Yes Please.

 

If you look up those lyrics, you can hear it! and I'll agree with Yes Please. Though the last play of it was probably the best sounding, even if it was only like half of it.

[serpentsatellite]

Matt’s stated positions on Brexit and Scottish Independence were entirely inkeeping with comments he'd made about the appeal of direct democracy, decentralisation of power etc. - there are many people with similar concerns who don’t have racist sympathies. It would’ve been much more surprising to me if he’d expressed support the other way.

 

Saying that, if I started making "final solution" references in my latest song, I'd expect to be grilled in interviews and have a more serious response prepared

 

The question is more, what are you willing and not willing to compromise to get what you want.

 

There's no "perfect candidate" or perfect solution, but when the Brexit campaign, or "America First" or whatever became heavily racially tinged, do you give up something (small government/protectionism) you are in favor of because there's something you can't stand for attached (anti-immigrant/racist sentiments,) or go along with the bad to get what you want?

I guess that's been an obvious answer to me when civil rights are involved.

 

And if you think about it, especially in US politics, it never goes the other way.

Political candidates that are advocating for aiding those in need and parties that have a proven track record in improving the economy are shunned by the people that need the help the most because of (mostly religious) wedge issues like gay marriage, abortion, and sensible gun control.

 

So, we see all the time that people are willing to take a stand to, say, keep their assault rifles, at the expense of not just the betterment of the country, but themselves.

Or to not have to bake a gay couple a cake, ffs.

 

This is a perfect example of "thought contagion" because people can be and were easily manipulated by memes of Hillary Clinton shaking hands with Satan, or pictures of Muslims wearing burkas. And it ties in perfectly with Matt's "govt brainwashing" stuff, because a political party preys upon people with these beliefs; it lies to their faces for the power to give themselves massive tax cuts before they retire.

It (at least right now) says that a child molester, or a guy who cheats on his wife with porn stars and assaults women in bars is a better person because they claim to be Christian than a person who actually acts in a way that's more keeping with Christ's teachings (you know, like loving your neighbor and helping the less fortunate.)

But, of course, after all the barking about how the government controls people... this is when he chooses to abandon that whole schtick.

 

It's hard to say "well, I loved Brexit except for the racism" loud enough that everyone hears it. Or cares. Lie down with dogs...

Honestly, racist issues aside, Brexit has been fucking the country for a year, and it hasn't even happened yet. The worst is yet to come.

And none of it will touch people like Bellamy.

THAT is more of the concern with his ability to say "stuff's just fine when you don't let it bother you!"

 

Matt again took a very important, very relevant issue, and boiled it down to exactly the wrong conclusion. Simplified the problem into something asinine.

Like the book of VHS covers that inspired the artwork for songs they don't fit with, it's just window dressing with zero substance or thought put into it.

[LoganMH]

It’s tricky. I mean, “what are you willing and not willing to compromise to get what you want” is the important question, exactly as you say, when looking at the bigger picture.

 

But I think there’s a growing tendency for people to conflate separate political events based on perceived trends, and extrapolate similarities without acknowledging the various cultural nuances that make them different. It’s something I feel quite strongly about whenever I see people making comparisons between Brexit and Trump. The assumption often seems to be that because a person can trace some general parallels in attitude, or identify how one political result might plausibly have contributed to the momentum of the other in some way, that they’re inextricably linked, and that the mentality underpinning both is similar. I don’t think it’s that straightforward - not in a lot of cases, anyway, despite what outspoken protesters/commentators would have you believe. Of course, Nigel Farage cosying up to Trump didn’t help the optics (), but while Farage was instrumental in prompting the referendum, he was a fairly marginal figure when it came to actual campaigns for and against the UK staying in the EU.

 

A substantial number of people from both sides of the political divide over here had wanted to ‘leave’ for some time, with every intention to maintain very positive, mutually beneficial relationships with neighbouring countries in Europe (and fight to protect the rights of all people living over here at the time of the vote). The thing is, the EU was initially sold as a trading bloc in the 1950s (practical and sensible), but evolved into the political organisation it is today (seeking “ever closer union”) against a lot of people’s wishes. Possibly due to laziness, many weren't sufficiently engaged until - in their minds - it seemed too late to affect any sort of meaningful change (and all UK governments seemed unwilling to really push for it, in any case). Perhaps it’d be a bit like if the US, Mexico and Canada signed some sort of trade agreement, added a bit about free movement of people, and then slowly started shifting powers from their individual governments to the greater whole. When the going got tough, some people would want to cut their losses. I mean, literally the day before the referendum, a former President of the European Commission was calling for the establishment of a European Army - that sort of thing spooked people, I think ...

 

On the immigration issue, not every person who voted to leave necessarily thought “we want less people coming into our country” so much as “we want the people in the UK to feel like they have a direct say, one way or another, when they vote for their preferred parties during elections - rather than be forced to follow quotas set from the outside”. Restoring parliamentary sovereignty/moving closer toward Matt’s “direct democracy” ideal was the main impetus for many, not just the cover-up story for some sort of mass racist/anti-immigration sentiment. Many understood that the UK economy would take a hit in the short term (at least), and thought it was a price worth paying. Many others, sadly, will have felt the squeeze, and the lack of any sort of coherent Brexit vision in the aftermath will continue to raise questions about whether it would have just been better to wait for the rest of the continent to agree drastic reform was necessary from within (there was clear unrest in France, now Italy, and there’ll be more to come). But it wasn’t going to be neat whatever happened, truthfully - and there was a real sense, reinforced by comments by the UK government and EU itself, that this might be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity (for better or worse). There’s no putting the genie back in the bottle with this sort of thing. And in fairness, I thought there were plenty of reasonable, impassioned debates where speakers on both sides of the Brexit issue came across well. Some people were unsure how they were going to vote right up until the day of the referendum. And, there was some disgusting racism - absolutely. No apologies are being made for that. But the tenor of the argument was, for the most part, quite different from all things Trump. As I understand it, anyway.

 

I’ve probably talked around the houses a bit here without adding much. I’m just wary of the UK and US political situations being compared too closely. It’s often said that both of our viable parties in the UK are to the Left of the Republicans and Democrats in the US (both are overwhelmingly in favour of extreme gun control, are pro-choice etc.). And as much as some people might be found over here moaning “I wish we had someone like Trump over here to negotiate our Brexit” (which many people would be horrified by), there are just so many differences. Frankly, I don’t feel qualified to start unpicking the Trump issue (and related ideologies), as much as I’ve been following as an outsider - there’s just so much to cover, and the US is so much bigger ! But I honestly think it’s Matt’s complete feeling of alienation from what he’s witnessing in the US (as a very English guy who probably only lives there because of his wealth/privilege/relationship) that prompts some of his more irreverent comments. Not that it’s an excuse, really.

 

Matt again took a very important, very relevant issue, and boiled it down to exactly the wrong conclusion. Simplified the problem into something asinine.

Like the book of VHS covers that inspired the artwork for songs they don't fit with, it's just window dressing with zero substance or thought put into it.

 

I think we more or less agree on that ! I saw an interview recently (might have been a fairly old one?) where Matt was deflecting from some US issue or other with “but er … yeah, big fan of the constitution haha” as if he was fully aware he’s just bluffing/going through the motions/doesn't really know what he's talking about. None of which would notice half as much if he didn’t insist on making all the political references in his lyrics to begin with !!

[sade]

I of course agree that there is more to it than Trump voter=Brexit voter=racist lowlife.

I can symphatise with Brexit voters a lot, and understand where lot of that resentment comes from, informed or not. That being said, there is definitely the same undercurrent in these national movements. Look also at Poland, Hungary in particular. From a sociopolitical point of view it is interesting how these movements don't seem to fit into the traditional left-right axis anymore. I mean, now it is the (Social) Democrat and Labour -the left- voters angry at leaving a free trade area, and the conservatives angry at global economics eliminating jobs and driving down wages.

 

The thing with justifying Matt's Brexit views (to which he is perfectly entitled to, of course) on "direct democracy" grounds doesn't really make much sense though, if you look at the spesifics: apparently he is fine with soft brexit only and wants to stay in the single market.

http://www.nme.com/news/music/muse-fans-react-matt-bellamy-brexit-hillary-clinton-comments-1841187

How does it serve "direct democracy" when the rules would be made by others and you have to follow it without having any say in them?

 

(Oh and to comment on the earlier discussion, I also agree that some of the conspiracy stuff was played up/in jest. I thought this was obvious, but it leads to the question that why you would want to treat your art as a joke? Also, it's an argument against direct democracy that a puzzling amount of people buy into that type of nonsense for real...)

[LoganMH]

The thing with justifying Matt's Brexit views (to which he is perfectly entitled to, of course) on "direct democracy" grounds doesn't really make much sense though, if you look at the spesifics: apparently he is fine with soft brexit only and wants to stay in the single market.

http://www.nme.com/news/music/muse-fans-react-matt-bellamy-brexit-hillary-clinton-comments-1841187

How does it serve "direct democracy" when the rules would be made by others and you have to follow it without having any say in them

 

Just quickly on this - that's a very good point, and I must say I forgot Matt went to such lengths to 'clarify' haha. At the time I remember thinking he was probably telling porkies about the single market I expect I'd disagree with him on a lot of things, but he's entitled to his opinions (or, to keep them to himself, if he'd prefer), and the Matt-Brexit/Scottish independence thing was very much an "of course he did :rolleyes:" moment for me!

[lurkinglurkerlurksagain]

Why is everyone still arguing about this one shitty line in Thought Contagion? Fucking hell.

[FabriPav]

Because it's unbelievably bad and there's not much else to discuss.

[Hat]

Why is everyone still arguing about this one shitty line in Thought Contagion? Fucking hell.

It quite clearly isn’t really about that line, even though people come back to it from time to time.