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Playing Unsustainable

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Posted (edited)

On 8/13/2019 at 5:24 AM, james90 said:

 

I think I get what parts you mean. Is it more the timing you're having difficulty with, or just figuring out the correct automation and program changes? Most of the track can be figured out easily enough if you have the correct grid divisions. Easiest way to do it is to figure out if the part you're working on has quarter, eighth, etc notes and then adjust the grid to match. 

The first part you mention is quite tricky. I don't think he's actually playing that part in the 'Making of' video - I thought it was a 12th fret harmonic on the A string, but it seems like he's muting everything completely. 

I'm pretty sure he's playing that one live without any backing, considering it sounds different each time. The original recording has the same +2 octave part in the MIDI track, but he hits the strings above the nut the fourth (final) time it's played. 03:39 in the recording. 

I'm having automation problems with the first part. Pretty sure the program changes are correct though.

Actually I tried to create a file yesterday, here's a video of it. I don't think it's too bad, just need to improve the automations to be precise (Also a big sustain/distortion problem too lol).  

Edited by giovannicovanni
I tried to add the video to the message, however I couldn't.

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That's better than most I've heard actually. Program changes sound like the correct ones. Also, nice looking strat 😉

I can't tell, but have you put any automation points between 0 and 127? Meaning the heel/toe positions of the whammy. From what I've learned so far, the track doesn't have any that are between. 

Something to think about is that the original track has the pitch in a lot of parts actually dropping and coming back up to the original. For example, when you saw it live, do you remember how there was a dive-bomb sort of effect at the end that stopped on -2 octaves? 

Here's a fairly recent video I did. I haven't changed a whole lot, but trying to approach that bit at the beginning in a different way (assuming it's only playing in the background in the making of video)

And yeah, the overall sound quality deteriorates quite a bit when run through the whammy on the -2 octave settings. I have it setup on -1 octave here. I noticed it's nowhere near as bad on the classic mode, so I'd switch to that if you're using the chords mode.

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On 8/14/2019 at 7:23 AM, james90 said:

That's better than most I've heard actually. Program changes sound like the correct ones. Also, nice looking strat 😉

I can't tell, but have you put any automation points between 0 and 127? Meaning the heel/toe positions of the whammy. From what I've learned so far, the track doesn't have any that are between. 

Something to think about is that the original track has the pitch in a lot of parts actually dropping and coming back up to the original. For example, when you saw it live, do you remember how there was a dive-bomb sort of effect at the end that stopped on -2 octaves? 

Here's a fairly recent video I did. I haven't changed a whole lot, but trying to approach that bit at the beginning in a different way (assuming it's only playing in the background in the making of video)

And yeah, the overall sound quality deteriorates quite a bit when run through the whammy on the -2 octave settings. I have it setup on -1 octave here. I noticed it's nowhere near as bad on the classic mode, so I'd switch to that if you're using the chords mod

Hehe thanks, it's a 62' Fender baby! 

Well, in the last video I posted, there was an +2 oct part, that I had used between 127 and 64 (I guess) to get a sound of +2 in toe and +1 in heel. However, it was totally wrong  😂 I focused on those +2 oct parts today and they sound much better now, hopefully will get a guitar with mbk-3's, it will sound better since they're going to have a lot more sustain.

 Which part do you mean by a dive-bomb sort of effect at the end that stopped on -2 octaves 

I use 12th fret on A string with -2 octaves, because it really doesn't change anything with these *treble 100 and bass 0* pickups 🤣. I will try it with the new guitar when it arrives though.

The videos are soo goood, It sounds %99.9 like the original track!     ps: jesus how many red mansons do you own lol

Here's a video of the new version, playing is not the best though. 

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On 8/15/2019 at 1:44 PM, giovannicovanni said:

Hehe thanks, it's a 62' Fender baby! 

Well, in the last video I posted, there was an +2 oct part, that I had used between 127 and 64 (I guess) to get a sound of +2 in toe and +1 in heel. However, it was totally wrong  😂 I focused on those +2 oct parts today and they sound much better now, hopefully will get a guitar with mbk-3's, it will sound better since they're going to have a lot more sustain.

 Which part do you mean by a dive-bomb sort of effect at the end that stopped on -2 octaves 

I use 12th fret on A string with -2 octaves, because it really doesn't change anything with these *treble 100 and bass 0* pickups 🤣. I will try it with the new guitar when it arrives though.

The videos are soo goood, It sounds %99.9 like the original track!     ps: jesus how many red mansons do you own lol

Here's a video of the new version, playing is not the best though. 

 

 

Nice, one of the roadworn models? Looks great.

As for the the +2 octave part you mention, that's definitely the logical way to approach it. You'd think that if it's two octaves up at CC 127, it would sound like it's one octave up at half that value (63.5, but round that to 64) 

But if you check that older video I posted, I recall it was set much closer to the +2 octave value for those triplets. Like 124-127 or something like that. I might still have a screenshot of that somewhere - will see if I can find it. While it seemed to match the original track's pitch closely, it really seemed like an extreme way to do it... 

Even though Matt is playing everything around the 12th fret in the studio/making of video, I've never seen him play it that way live. Plus it's difficult to say if the making of video is how it was really recorded. 

So I ended taking all of the -2 octave settings for the low notes out and using -1 octave instead, as well as using +1 octave for those fast triplets towards the beginning. It does require playing it differently and moving around the neck a bit more though, but also sounds a lot better because the pedal isn't altering the sound as much.

The dive-bomb sort of effect I mean is at the very end of the live version, as soon as the rest of the band stops playing. He hits a note on the 17th fret on the high E string, and it slowly drops two octaves in pitch. So the part right before that (the "you're un-sus-tain-a-ble" bit) is played on -2 octaves, 17th fret on the high E string.

And thanks - I've spent more time working on this than I'd like to admit, but happy to discuss what I've found. I'll see if I can send you a screen shot of the automation, but yours is sounding good. Like I said, the correct triplet grids are key, but also keeping in mind that most parts of the song use lower octave/divebomb patches on the whammy, and have those return to the original pitch. You'll have to invert the automation if you've already written it to use the higher octave patches though.

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

It's a 62' Reissue, and I added a custom aged pickguard for that vintage look 🙂 

For that 63.5-64 part, I had used a tuner after the whammy so I achieve the exact tune, however I kinda solved it so that's not a problem anymore. The reason is, I had tried doing 0 to 127 at that part and something was wrong, it was sounding so -I don't know, too.. complicated?-, so I  tried doing 64-127 so that the time between the pitch change was going to be faster, but also that didn't do any good. So I changed the grid with triplets and added a dive bomb effect for that killswitch sound, and that was it! Sounds pretty good for now, I'll just focus on the middle part where matt also sings, and when I finish it, I'll just look back into the other parts again for a perfect automation. 

 Thanks for the screenshot if you find it, but no problem if you can't too! 

Sorry I looked it up for the dive bomb effect in the end, but looks like I didn't take a video of that part and I don't remember very well. However, I've found this video on youtube that show us a close af look on his guitar.  looks like he plays 5th fret on low E instead of 12th on A like yours, however I thought he was playing unsustainable with drop A, perhaps he changed it to standard. I'm pretty sure he's not only going from 0 to 127 with a dive bomb in the end. There is a little bend-ish sound, before he does the dive bomb. I think it goes from -1oct to normal pitch , to dive bomb. 

By the way, what effect do you use for the string tree-picking parts? I tried -1 harmony in chords mode, sounds better now but still I'm missing something, just can't get that tone.

 

Edited by giovannicovanni

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11 hours ago, giovannicovanni said:

It's a 62' Reissue, and I added a custom aged pickguard for that vintage look 🙂 

For that 63.5-64 part, I had used a tuner after the whammy so I achieve the exact tune, however I kinda solved it so that's not a problem anymore. The reason is, I had tried doing 0 to 127 at that part and something was wrong, it was sounding so -I don't know, too.. complicated?-, so I  tried doing 64-127 so that the time between the pitch change was going to be faster, but also that didn't do any good. So I changed the grid with triplets and added a dive bomb effect for that killswitch sound, and that was it! Sounds pretty good for now, I'll just focus on the middle part where matt also sings, and when I finish it, I'll just look back into the other parts again for a perfect automation. 

 Thanks for the screenshot if you find it, but no problem if you can't too! 

Sorry I looked it up for the dive bomb effect in the end, but looks like I didn't take a video of that part and I don't remember very well. However, I've found this video on youtube that show us a close af look on his guitar.  looks like he plays 5th fret on low E instead of 12th on A like yours, however I thought he was playing unsustainable with drop A, perhaps he changed it to standard. I'm pretty sure he's not only going from 0 to 127 with a dive bomb in the end. There is a little bend-ish sound, before he does the dive bomb. I think it goes from -1oct to normal pitch , to dive bomb. 

By the way, what effect do you use for the string tree-picking parts? I tried -1 harmony in chords mode, sounds better now but still I'm missing something, just can't get that tone.

 

 

I think I get what you mean. I don’t think there’s anything particularly bizarre or complicated like that in the track. As I mentioned, I’ve tried loads of different ideas like going from CC 124-127 because it matched the pitch closely, but it really didn’t make sense to do it that way.

Yeah, the dive-bomb effect is key for that part. It sort of mutes the notes if that makes sense? I recall it sounds best with the dive-bomb effect switching on and off VERY quickly at the end of each of those three triplets. I can give you the timestamps of where to put the six program changes, but it might not match depending on the grid you’re using. Are you doing this in Logic or Cubase? Or something else?

And yeah that’s correct - it’s standard tuning. I was originally playing it like in the studio version (everything around the 12th fret) but found those -2 octave A string notes sounded pretty bad. So I set it up to be like the live version, which has the 5th fret low E on -1 octave like you say.

As for the part at the very end of the live version, you might be right. It seems like the slight bend was coming from the part below? 

 

253462641_ScreenShot2019-08-19at10_57_31PM.jpg.5a2e8abd2d443d7aef7a91f1a22e27eb.jpg 

 

It’s the same pattern, but has the final 127 point moved to a different position.

The string tree parts are the dive bomb patch switching on and off. I have the automation set to 127 the entire time. The reason is likely due to the difference in the guitars. The MB guitars don’t have string trees, so it sounds a bit different. Similar to doing it on a Gibson style guitar with an angled headstock really.

And before I forget. If you try to go super accurate and match the sweep of the pitch and whatnot… get the instrumental track and isolate it so you’re only hearing one guitar. I can send you this if you’d like. As I mentioned earlier, they’re not perfectly in tune with each other for whatever reason, so it’s best to base everything on one guitar track if you’re trying to match it exactly.

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On 8/20/2019 at 5:04 AM, james90 said:

 

I think I get what you mean. I don’t think there’s anything particularly bizarre or complicated like that in the track. As I mentioned, I’ve tried loads of different ideas like going from CC 124-127 because it matched the pitch closely, but it really didn’t make sense to do it that way.

Yeah, the dive-bomb effect is key for that part. It sort of mutes the notes if that makes sense? I recall it sounds best with the dive-bomb effect switching on and off VERY quickly at the end of each of those three triplets. I can give you the timestamps of where to put the six program changes, but it might not match depending on the grid you’re using. Are you doing this in Logic or Cubase? Or something else?

And yeah that’s correct - it’s standard tuning. I was originally playing it like in the studio version (everything around the 12th fret) but found those -2 octave A string notes sounded pretty bad. So I set it up to be like the live version, which has the 5th fret low E on -1 octave like you say.

As for the part at the very end of the live version, you might be right. It seems like the slight bend was coming from the part below? 

 

253462641_ScreenShot2019-08-19at10_57_31PM.jpg.5a2e8abd2d443d7aef7a91f1a22e27eb.jpg 

 

It’s the same pattern, but has the final 127 point moved to a different position.

The string tree parts are the dive bomb patch switching on and off. I have the automation set to 127 the entire time. The reason is likely due to the difference in the guitars. The MB guitars don’t have string trees, so it sounds a bit different. Similar to doing it on a Gibson style guitar with an angled headstock really.

And before I forget. If you try to go super accurate and match the sweep of the pitch and whatnot… get the instrumental track and isolate it so you’re only hearing one guitar. I can send you this if you’d like. As I mentioned earlier, they’re not perfectly in tune with each other for whatever reason, so it’s best to base everything on one guitar track if you’re trying to match it exactly.

 

I think I got the killswitch-ish dive bomb parts correct in my new version (or maybe a litttle lag but I kinda like it so didn't change it) so no need for the screenshot for now :), thanks though! 

I'm using logic. I tried the automation you sent for the final dive bomb, but it sounded kinda weird to me (used /24 grid). Here I'm putting both screenshots and audio files to compare.

 

This is the one you sent, and the red part is where I put the dive bomb in.

B2.png.c98d6ddf7d8d4662b2cad44ba145a0c6.pngB2.WAV

 

This is the one I use (again red part is the dive bomb).

A1.png.1b6abf107bc35edf3c6f9498707e26fd.pngA1.WAV

 

I'm not really trying to get the EXACT tune to be honest. I'm playing kinda roughly like Matt does in live performances, I just play whatever I feel at that moment, sometimes I hit the string tree, sometimes do a harmonic, sometimes open notes, basically just improvise. With the correct program changes, they all sound cool if you know what I mean.

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That's fair enough - I doubt Matt's played it exactly the same more than once in live performances

Sorry, shouldn't have called it a dive-bomb actually. I meant the very end of the live version that has that note that drops in pitch. It should be switching to -2 octave at the beginning of the 127th measure, and it remains on that for the pitch drop during the next measure. This is what I mentioned earlier about how some parts of the song don't have the higher octave settings, but are actually the lower octave settings returning to the actual pitch (if that makes sense)

 

 

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