LyraSilvertongue Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Uhm, with a father that pushes you into music and playing from the day you were born? I'm not saying that some people don't have an easier time with it, I'm saying that it's not some natural talent that we are born with. Then you're an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Take singing as an example. You can study the theory of singing, you can practice every day for hours, that doesn't mean you have a hope in hell of sounding good. Some people sound good with minimal effort (natural talent), some sound shit no matter how hard they try. Surely even you can't dispute this? Jeez, you're starting to sound like Haze. I have heard loads of singers go from 0 to 100. Take Jesse Nemitz as an example. Yes, it's undeniable that some people can sing from an early age, maybe even have the ability from birth. But I don't agree that it makes it a talent. I have already explained this to you. Singing is a physical activity, unless you're tone deaf, you can change the way you use that part of your body. Just because you can't figure out how to use them doesn't mean that it's not possible. Singing is basically holding notes. Anyone can hold a note. Does it sound bad? Well then you're using your voice in the wrong way, and that can be changed with training. Do you have any idea how a vocal coach works and how much they can actually alter with ones voice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyraSilvertongue Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I have heard loads of singers go from 0 to 100. Take Jesse Nemitz as an example. Yes, it's undeniable that some people can sing from an early age, maybe even have the ability from birth. But I don't agree that it makes it a talent. I have already explained this to you. Singing is a physical activity, unless you're tone deaf, you can change the way you use that part of your body. Just because you can't figure out how to use them doesn't mean that it's not possible. Singing is basically holding notes. Anyone can hold a note. Does it sound bad? Well then you're using your voice in the wrong way, and that can be changed with training. Do you have any idea how a vocal coach works and how much they can actually alter with ones voice? All I know is some people will never sound good, no matter how hard they try and how much vocal coaching they have, and some will sound good with minimal effort. How you can deny that this fact isn't due to some natural aptitude is beyond me, frankly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clom Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Sorry Sippe, but I'm pretty certain that at least a percentage of ability comes from natural talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 All I know is some people will never sound good, no matter how hard they try and how much vocal coaching they have, and some will sound good with minimal effort. How you can deny that this fact isn't due to some natural aptitude is beyond me, frankly. And you know that they will never sound good becaaause? I know that some sounds good with minimal effort, I just agreed with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Sorry Sippe, but I'm pretty certain that at least a percentage of ability comes from natural talent. And what is natural talent? Just explain to me what it means in a way that can't be explained by environment, experience, the way you are raised or the amount you practice. And also, "a percentage of ability" still proves my original point which is that it's a degrading and useless term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyraSilvertongue Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 And you know that they will never sound good becaaause? I know that some sounds good with minimal effort, I just agreed with that. Did you? I must have missed that. Are you saying that people with no talent for singing, who are tone deaf, can become good singers with practice? Because I'd have to wholeheartedly disagree with you there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Did you? I must have missed that. Are you saying that people with no talent for singing, who are tone deaf, can become good singers with practice? Because I'd have to wholeheartedly disagree with you there. "Yes, it's undeniable that some people can sing from an early age, maybe even have the ability from birth." "unless you're tone deaf" How am I supposed to discuss with someone who doesn't even read what you're arguing against? And I'm saying that I've heard really shitty singers who are out of tune, breath and has no vocal quality turn into good singers. You're saying that you have heard people try to be good singers but failed. I'm not sure how to prove my point better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spittle Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I think if you look at people like Ryan Balch, you'll see there are far more talented musicians. Matt is pretty spot-on though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Oh and also, tone deaf people are a lot more uncommon than people think. Just because you sing out of tune without noticing doesn't mean you're tone deaf. I know people with perfect pitch who can't sing in tune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyraSilvertongue Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 And I'm saying that I've heard really shitty singers who are out of tune, breath and has no vocal quality turn into good singers. You're saying that you have heard people try to be good singers but failed. I'm not sure how to prove my point better... "Yes, it's undeniable that some people can sing from an early age, maybe even have the ability from birth. But I don't agree that it makes it a talent." What does that make it, then? They've been trained since before the were born? Vocal lessons in the womb? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyraSilvertongue Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Oh and also, tone deaf people are a lot more uncommon than people think. Just because you sing out of tune without noticing doesn't mean you're tone deaf. I know people with perfect pitch who can't sing in tune. Are you talking about yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spittle Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 The mods should edit the name in the thread title to "Morgan." There'd be a better discussion then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clom Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 And what is natural talent? Just explain to me what it means in a way that can't be explained by environment, experience, the way you are raised or the amount you practice. And also, "a percentage of ability" still proves my original point which is that it's a degrading and useless term. Just how easy it is for someone to learn something. If it is easier for you to learn it, then you have more talent in it. Simple. Are you talking about yourself? Come on now Lyra, what's the point of comments like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 "Yes, it's undeniable that some people can sing from an early age, maybe even have the ability from birth. But I don't agree that it makes it a talent." What does that make it, then? They've been trained since before the were born? Vocal lessons in the womb? Singing good is about vocal placement and technique. Everyone has a placement in the voice from the first note they sing, or even talk. If you were to ask someone who has never sung a note to sing, they would have to just guess, right? They just try. Maybe you find that vocal placement that sounds good instantly, that doesn't mean you knew how to do it. It just means you managed to find it. And also, what makes a good singer? I can with confidence say that no one can produce quality high notes with great technique from the start. Everything like that is learned. A person with a good vocal placement and more importantly, a voice that sounds good* and can sing in tune, is by default a good singer. It doesn't really require much. *sounding good meaning the voices that we are born with. You know like some people are born baritones with deep voices, and some have really pitchy voices that are just annoying to listen to. This has nothing to do with talent any more than having long legs is a talent. Are you talking about yourself? No, I don't even have close to perfect pitch I am decent enough to pick out a pitch out of a sustained note at most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave. Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I think we should change it to 'Everyone argue with Sippe' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clom Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Singing good is about vocal placement and technique. Everyone has a placement in the voice from the first note they sing, or even talk. If you were to ask someone who has never sung a note to sing, they would have to just guess, right? They just try. Maybe you find that vocal placement that sounds good instantly, that doesn't mean you knew how to do it. It just means you managed to find it. And also, what makes a good singer? I can with confidence say that no one can produce quality high notes with great technique from the start. Everything like that is learned. A person with a good vocal placement and more importantly, a voice that sounds good* and can sing in tune, is by default a good singer. It doesn't really require much. *sounding good meaning the voices that we are born with. You know like some people are born baritones with deep voices, and some have really pitchy voices that are just annoying to listen to. This has nothing to do with talent any more than having long legs is a talent. Starting to understand your point a bit more now actually.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Just how easy it is for someone to learn something. If it is easier for you to learn it, then you have more talent in it. Simple. I can't say "this is wrong", just as you can't say that it's right. There is no proof that it can't have anything to do with any of the other things that influences everything we do. A person that is tired has a harder time learning than someone who is fully awake. A person that is distracted has a harder time. A person that is hungry has a harder time. Even though I am aware that these are just temporary influences on how we act, I'm sure you'll agree that there are loads of things that aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyraSilvertongue Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 I can't say "this is wrong", just as you can't say that it's right. There is no proof that it can't have anything to do with any of the other things that influences everything we do. A person that is tired has a harder time learning than someone who is fully awake. A person that is distracted has a harder time. A person that is hungry has a harder time. Even though I am aware that these are just temporary influences on how we act, I'm sure you'll agree that there are loads of things that aren't. But do you dispute the fact that some people will find it easy to sing really well, with minimal effort, and some will find it hard to sound good no matter how hard they try? That to me spells talent, or aptitude, if you prefer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clom Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 I can't say "this is wrong", just as you can't say that it's right. There is no proof that it can't have anything to do with any of the other things that influences everything we do. Yeah of course you can't, I understand that this is all just opinion. Even though I am aware that these are just temporary influences on how we act, I'm sure you'll agree that there are loads of things that aren't. Any examples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 But do you dispute the fact that some people will find it easy to sing really well, with minimal effort For the third time, no. And I explained why in my last post... and some will find it hard to sound good no matter how hard they try? That to me spells talent, or aptitude, if you prefer. So now it has changed from "not possible" to "hard"? So it IS possible for them to sound good anyway? I have already explained all of this, but you don't really want to read my posts, do you? Who are these people that sound bad no matter how hard they try? What have they actually done to try and sound better? And what is it that makes them sound bad? Is it the fact that they can't hit the right notes? Is it that they sound whiny? Is it that they sound very forced or strained? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banksy. Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 I don't see why this argument hasn't stopped yet, I think you've all made your point as clear as they will be and you still disagree with each other, it isn't going anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Yeah of course you can't, I understand that this is all just opinion. Any examples? My original point was that saying "Oh he has such a talent for this" is a degrading thing to say since it usually implies that this person hasn't worked hard to be good at what he/she does. I've heard several times that things come so easily to Matt. How the fuck does anyone know that? Do we have any idea how much he has practiced and paid attention to the music around him to understand what he's doing? ADHD? Dyslexia? There you have two perfectly reasonable explanations to why some have a harder time. And you know, it IS possible to have a harder time concentrating than just having something that can be classified as a disability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyraSilvertongue Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 I don't see why this argument hasn't stopped yet, I think you've all made your point as clear as they will be and you still disagree with each other, it isn't going anywhere. Exactly. But he can never let anything go (yes, I know that last statement will just make things worse. whatever). Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banksy. Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 I've heard several times that things come so easily to Matt. How the fuck does anyone know that? Do we have any idea how much he has practiced and paid attention to the music around him to understand what he's doing? It is indeed clear that Matt practiced his voice a lot though. If you listen to how terrible it sounds on some of the earlier recordings (as in really fucking early), compared to now, it's remarkable that it's the same person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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