MUSEicly_Talented Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 i need to either quash or confirm this... a friend told me that he worked behind the scenes for a bit and a man called Des told him, if dom drops his sticks or matt fucks up or something they turn the cd up which they all have playing in their monitors... i told him this can't be true, i've seen them live many times, and i know the sounds on the cd's so well i could replicate them with my mouth, lol. i can play a split second of any muse track and tell you what it is. straight away! no problem! (well actually its a split second of the intro but i didn't say that to him cause it didn't seem as strong of a counter argument, and i was taken completely by suprise when he told me) i also told him that i know they use backing tracks to accompany them, but thats only cause their recent albums have been over-produced... and thinking about it now they play their live songs so differently and matt sings them differently so how can it be? i just need someone to confirm that either one of us is right. and only if you know. if you don't then feel free to discuss it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Sammy! Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Most bands these days use backing tracks to enhance the sound of their music and make sure it has all the elements it has on record (e.g. with Muse, as much as we would want them to, they don't drag an orchestra around to play the Overture strings each time they play the song, they play a backing track). The mistakes Muse make are pretty darn obvious though and generally they stop the song when they do a real big mistake. I assure you they don't have a track/CD behind them, whoever told you so is full of crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Sammy! Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Also, overproduction has nothing to do with backing tracks, just for the record. Overproduction is involved in the final stage once all the pieces have been recorded, and then they edit the audio so much that it ends up being quite plastic sounding. It's called the loudness war, there's a big article on it on Wikipedia if you're interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUSEicly_Talented Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 i think overproduced might have been the wrong choice of word, but i think you know what i meant by it anyway. He said they've been doing it only since they started doing stadium gigs, ie Wembley and that. still i'm inclined to agree, i've seen mistakes all over the place, i saw a vid on youtube of chris starting time is running out and dom playing starlight.. so if they have a track playing to them in their ears one of them must be deaf... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Sammy! Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I assure you 100% that they don't use backing tracks for their mistakes, and there was a mistake at Wembley itself where Matt's guitar cut out and he ran across the stage to get back to his guitar pedals to try and fix it to no avail. There was also another mistake that I can remember from one of the French stadium gigs, Matt's microphone wasn't turned on during MK Ultra. Them playing different songs than each other just means that somebody read the setlist wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pip Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 There was also another mistake that I can remember from one of the French stadium gigs, Matt's microphone wasn't turned on during MK Ultra. Ha ha! I was right in front of him filming it, was bloody funny! :LOL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LQrA6Jx6ro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WutDaFucksy Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Same happened during MK Ultra at Wembley too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUSEicly_Talented Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 I assure you 100% that they don't use backing tracks for their mistakes, and there was a mistake at Wembley itself where Matt's guitar cut out and he ran across the stage to get back to his guitar pedals to try and fix it to no avail. There was also another mistake that I can remember from one of the French stadium gigs, Matt's microphone wasn't turned on during MK Ultra. Them playing different songs than each other just means that somebody read the setlist wrong... i meant i was inclined to agree with you. and them playing the worng songs, regardess of it being that they may have misread the setlist, i was using it as an example of how they can't have a backing track cause if one of them played the wrong song, you would hear the actual song continue to play their instruments for them. i knew he was wrong, i just didn't have any wits about me (heavily drunk) to argue back.. wait till i see him later on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Also, overproduction has nothing to do with backing tracks, just for the record. Overproduction is involved in the final stage once all the pieces have been recorded, and then they edit the audio so much that it ends up being quite plastic sounding. It's called the loudness war, there's a big article on it on Wikipedia if you're interested. Over-production and the loudness war are two very different things. Nor has it got anything to do with editing. Muse using backing tracks is not a new thing. They started doing it with Bliss, then when tey toured Absolution, backing tracks were on pretty much everything and led to a big backlash against it (We're talking to the point that the harmonics in Stockholm Syndrome were backing tracks and it was fairly obvious Matt wasn't playing them when he's sliding his hands up and down the fretboard when he's supposed to be playing them), then they brought in Morgan so they didn't have to use as much. Muse's problem now is too much automation in the background rather than backing tracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Sammy! Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Over-production and the loudness war are two very different things. Nor has it got anything to do with editing. I knew I'd get called out on that. I was trying to be as basic as possible because I don't even really get it (obviously). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyper_chondriac_muser Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Most bands use backing tracks - it's become a common element of playing live. I don't see anything wrong with it so long as the band are still performing live. I wouldn't expect them to be able to recreate the string effects in Exogenesis by bringing in a real orchestra to perform every time. It's more about 'perfecting' the live sound, I think. That's why Morgan's become so vital to their live set; he makes up for a lot of the things the three of them alone can't do. What it prevents them from doing, though, is creating a more 'raw' live feel to their live performances. The songs sound too perfect/close to the studio versions, which they shouldn't, imo. A mistake or two lets you know the band's not miming or relying on the songs in the background (which is a relief!) and that they're human! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 I knew I'd get called out on that. I was trying to be as basic as possible because I don't even really get it (obviously). Over-production is a term as old as multi-tracking and everything these days is technically over-produced. Something like a drum kit alone is just madness in how it is recorded and has no resemblance to how someone would hear it if they were in the same room. Loudness treatment can be done on anything and it has always existed, far from a modern thing, just the limitations of vinyl and old school limiters don't exist today, plus it is possible to intentionally produce something to be stupidly loud. Something lost on a lot of people who complain about modern mastering. And no, most bands do not use backing tracks, that is a load of horse shit. End of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Sammy! Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Over-production is a term as old as multi-tracking and everything these days is technically over-produced. Something like a drum kit alone is just madness in how it is recorded and has no resemblance to how someone would hear it if they were in the same room. Loudness treatment can be done on anything and it has always existed, far from a modern thing, just the limitations of vinyl and old school limiters don't exist today, plus it is possible to intentionally produce something to be stupidly loud. Something lost on a lot of people who complain about modern mastering. And no, most bands do not use backing tracks, that is a load of horse shit. End of. Yeah, I'm very uneducated on the topic because I'm not particularly interested in that kind of stuff you've explained it well though. I also said most bands use backing tracks, I meant more that it's become a normal part of band playing nowadays. It's a bit easier now than back in the days where bands had to use casettes if they wanted a backing track (e.g. Depeche Mode). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Yeah, I'm very uneducated on the topic because I'm not particularly interested in that kind of stuff you've explained it well though. I also said most bands use backing tracks, I meant more that it's become a normal part of band playing nowadays. It's a bit easier now than back in the days where bands had to use casettes if they wanted a backing track (e.g. Depeche Mode). Depeche Mode are at heart an electronic band and wouldn't have been possible to play what they recorded live at that point in time and the whole idea of using synthesizers rather than a live drummer when they started was revolutionary. Plus their shows these days are as close to live as they can get and not them playing to backing tracks. The technology is there these days, no excuses anymore. But anyone that thinks most bands use backing tracks simply needs to go to more gigs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominic. Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 i need to either quash or confirm this... a friend told me that he worked behind the scenes for a bit and a man called Des told him, if dom drops his sticks or matt fucks up or something they turn the cd up which they all have playing in their monitors... i told him this can't be true, i've seen them live many times, and i know the sounds on the cd's so well i could replicate them with my mouth, lol. i can play a split second of any muse track and tell you what it is. straight away! no problem! (well actually its a split second of the intro but i didn't say that to him cause it didn't seem as strong of a counter argument, and i was taken completely by suprise when he told me) i also told him that i know they use backing tracks to accompany them, but thats only cause their recent albums have been over-produced... and thinking about it now they play their live songs so differently and matt sings them differently so how can it be? i just need someone to confirm that either one of us is right. and only if you know. if you don't then feel free to discuss it. Umm, I'm not sure if I'm on a different track to everyone else when I say this but... Yes they did used to have a tech called Des (was he a piano one? I dunno) and from what you've said it sounds to me like if they make a mistake they just turn the click track up in their monitors to help them keep time I think it's pretty clear that apart from some additional parts like the Bliss synths, UD strings (Morgan totally doesn't play them) that Muse don't use backing tracks on any guitars or bass parts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Sammy! Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Depeche Mode are at heart an electronic band and wouldn't have been possible to play what they recorded live at that point in time and the whole idea of using synthesizers rather than a live drummer when they started was revolutionary. Plus their shows these days are as close to live as they can get and not them playing to backing tracks. The technology is there these days, no excuses anymore. But anyone that thinks most bands use backing tracks simply needs to go to more gigs. Yeah, that's what I meant. They had no choice but to use backing tracks. Now that Andy Fletcher actually plays his keyboards live, they can do a lot more and it shows in their last couple of live DVDs. Less emphasis on backing tracks seeing they didn't have a proper bass player. Albeit they have more members, bands like Radiohead and Arcade Fire get along fine without any backing tracks. Sometimes the songs show it, but they do their damn best to hide it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Yeah, that's what I meant. They had no choice but to use backing tracks. Now that Andy Fletcher actually plays his keyboards live, they can do a lot more and it shows in their last couple of live DVDs. Less emphasis on backing tracks seeing they didn't have a proper bass player. Albeit they have more members, bands like Radiohead and Arcade Fire get along fine without any backing tracks. Sometimes the songs show it, but they do their damn best to hide it. Well some of the backing tracks that Muse have used in the past wasn't out of lack of choice. They did freely admit in one interview years ago that the bass synth in TIRO and Hysteria were backing tracks live and Chris only played the clean part along to it. Most bands learn to work around it or just write music they can actually play. If you can't play it live, then why play live to begin with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUSEicly_Talented Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 i don't think they are any less amazing for using the backing track, i was just surprised and doubtful, based on what i've seen and heard in my 10 years as a fan. i've never been dissapointed about anything except for their last album (bar exogenesis and possibly mk ultra/unnatural selection) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominique Howard Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 I remember in Rock in Rio 2010, Matt made a little mystake in Hysteria http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coOZosptqzY I believe they use backtrack only in exogenesis, but the others songs are original, becuase they play something different in every gig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz0_o Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Is it the end of the world if they do use a backing track for mistakes? Its not like there pulling a britney spears or anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
velvetgrass Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Yeah, I'm very uneducated on the topic because I'm not particularly interested in that kind of stuff you've explained it well though. I also said most bands use backing tracks, I meant more that it's become a normal part of band playing nowadays. It's a bit easier now than back in the days where bands had to use casettes if they wanted a backing track (e.g. Depeche Mode). The Who were using backing tracks in 1973 with cassettes on the Quadrophenia tour and usually for the synthesizer parts of "Won't Get Fooled Again" up until they got a keyboardist. Listen I don't know anything about Depeche Mode but backing tracks were used in shows way before they even existed. On the topic, Muse using backing tracks doesn't surprise me. I thought a lot of "Undisclosed Desires" live had to be backing tracks. Wasn't it like a drum machine or synthesizer/programmer on the studio version? You can't really replicate that live. You can't tell me that they actually can replicate that song live with a Keytar and those two weird drums Dom uses? Not dissing them, just asking a question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AguanteRiver Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 It wouldn't surprise me if they did, but it doesn't really hide mistakes if they do use backing tracks. Look up the San Diego '10 version of Hysteria! The solo was so incredibly out of tune that no track could have covered that up. I expect they just use them to enhance the sound, as it were, since they are only 4 guys and the songs have so many layers to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimal Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 What it prevents them from doing, though, is creating a more 'raw' live feel to their live performances. The songs sound too perfect/close to the studio versions, which they shouldn't, imo. Agreed. Which is why I think recent performances (the whole Resistance tour really) are a little boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DownAndOut Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 ... they don't drag an orchestra around to play the Overture strings each time they play the song, they play a backing track... I thought that was Morgan playing synth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Sammy! Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Well some of the backing tracks that Muse have used in the past wasn't out of lack of choice. They did freely admit in one interview years ago that the bass synth in TIRO and Hysteria were backing tracks live and Chris only played the clean part along to it. Most bands learn to work around it or just write music they can actually play. If you can't play it live, then why play live to begin with? Your last comment applies to the first bit too really, Muse have complained songs are 'too complicated live' (e.g. Exogenesis II, MK Ultra, Matt has complained)... If he can play it on record, why can't he play it live? If it seriously took him 30/40 takes to get it right on the album, then yeah, I'd understand, but then why would you even go to that effort? The Who were using backing tracks in 1973 with cassettes on the Quadrophenia tour and usually for the synthesizer parts of "Won't Get Fooled Again" up until they got a keyboardist. Listen I don't know anything about Depeche Mode but backing tracks were used in shows way before they even existed. On the topic, Muse using backing tracks doesn't surprise me. I thought a lot of "Undisclosed Desires" live had to be backing tracks. Wasn't it like a drum machine or synthesizer/programmer on the studio version? You can't really replicate that live. You can't tell me that they actually can replicate that song live with a Keytar and those two weird drums Dom uses? Not dissing them, just asking a question. I was giving an example, not calling them revolutionary... Depeche Mode were around in the early 80s so they weren't too long after The Who. And nah, the electronic drums are just the same as the normal drums, the noises the drums make change as need be (i.e. clicking in the verses, snare in the chorus). Before he got the stand up drums, he used to use just his normal drum kit and just use to hit the rim of the snare (which makes a click noise). Sure, it's not a photocopy of the album drumming but we're talking one or two minor differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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