dontask Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 wouldve been nice to see Glorious on the album yeah, its brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUSESTL Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 Your topic states cheese in the title, so that's my first reason for commenting on this. Questioning the existence is also not very cliché I'd say, unless you can tell me the answer? Trapped in God's program is in fact a very good statement here, because it's a follow up to 'aping my soul'. Creationism vs Evolution vs Existentialism! But if you want to you can stick to suffering and moaning people if that floats your boat. I'm not moaning or suffering. I love all of the songs I talked about; I was just wondering why people bash some songs and not others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawakangaroo Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I don't dislike NSC or GL because of the cheese, in fact, that's the only thing that makes at least Guiding Light bearable. GL is boring and repetitive, but if you sing along to it over-dramatically, it's fun. NSC just isn't that great at all, imo. It's not that these songs are cheesy, it's just that they're not good in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce57 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 YES. Glorious is amazing. first time i've ever seen you agree with anyone on anything, ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WutDaFucksy Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Guiding Light and Neutron Star Collision just shit on eachother because they are so shit, then Starlight shits on them for being shit, then the majority of the Muse catalogue shits on all three of them for being shite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombat_714 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Am I misinterpreting your post, or are you implying that all modern pop is inherently bad? Pretty much. There are a few exceptions, but most is just terrible. Also, Muse should not be doing pop music anyway, they're no good at it. Starlight is one example of a few they've done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis III Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Pretty much. There are a few exceptions, but most is just terrible. Also, Muse should not be doing pop music anyway, they're no good at it. Starlight is one example of a few they've done. Hmm well that seems to be a fairly popular opinion. I'm not the biggest fan of pop myself, and I think a lot of it (particularly the more mainstream stuff) is quite obnoxious and trite. However, I do love some dream pop, synth pop and new wave, and while those genres have seen better days there are still some great recent examples of them. And I have to disagree with you, I think Muse are great at pop. UD is one of my favourite songs of the last decade, pop or otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombat_714 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 And I have to disagree with you, I think Muse are great at pop. UD is one of my favourite songs of the last decade, pop or otherwise. Catchy does not equal good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis III Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Catchy does not equal good. Not in and of itself, but it's certainly a contributing factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Pretty much. There are a few exceptions, but most is just terrible. Also, Muse should not be doing pop music anyway, they're no good at it. Starlight is one example of a few they've done. Muse have always made pop music, very rare for them to do anything to the contrary. Got to love the naivity that somehow because a band writes and plays their own songs with guitars, somehow they can't be pop. Anyway, Muse can do modern radio-friendly pop music; Supermassive Black Hole. Just too much focus is on the shite songs they have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthijs Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I think looking at the pop songs muse have written, Supermassive Black Hole and Undisclosed Desires were the most succesful in production. With Starlight they tried to mix the classic muse sound (arpeggio's, heavy bass) with a poppy character which made it a bit less popular, and the lyrics didn't help there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetro Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Pretty much. There are a few exceptions, but most is just terrible. Also, Muse should not be doing pop music anyway, they're no good at it. Starlight is one example of a few they've done. That does not make for a good point when you think all pop music is bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
static shadows Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 OOS Muse thrived by breaking musical clichés and were abrasive noisy listening, which drew fans sick of musical clichés. Those musically "cheesy" tracks like Neutron Star Collision, Guiding Light, Invincible & Starlight are by contrast full of musical clichés, are blandly produced, and very musically safe. As such old fans especially see those "cheesy" tracks as musically representing everything the Muse they fell in love with stood against and were kicking out at. Which makes all the more difficult to take, and leads to such over the top angry sentiments. And I am most definitely one of those angry old fans! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombat_714 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 That does not make for a good point when you think all pop music is bad. What? That doesn't make sense. I didn't say all pop music if you actually read what I wrote and I'm not sure what you're trying to say about Starlight... I am implying it's not a very good song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supernova14 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Wasn't Coma one of their pop songs? That was good. I'm not sure if it's cheesy or not either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombat_714 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Your people's definitions of 'pop' and 'cheese' music confuses me. Whatevs, Muse sucks anyway, so who cares? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priad-Luabe Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 OOS Muse thrived by breaking musical clichés and were abrasive noisy listening, which drew fans sick of musical clichés. Those musically "cheesy" tracks like Neutron Star Collision, Guiding Light, Invincible & Starlight are by contrast full of musical clichés, are blandly produced, and very musically safe. As such old fans especially see those "cheesy" tracks as musically representing everything the Muse they fell in love with stood against and were kicking out at. Which makes all the more difficult to take, and leads to such over the top angry sentiments. And I am most definitely one of those angry old fans! really? really? oos is cliche' free? so Plug in baby/bliss/feeling good/new born dont have any cliche's in them?... pretty much all of pib is cliche except for the riff, bliss is complete cliche', feeling good is a cover so i'll leave it out, new born has cliche'd lyrics "bitterness inside" for example and ofcourse the entire chorus is cliche "Destroy the spineless Show me it's real Wasting our last chance to come away Just break a silence Cause i'm drifting away Away from you", furthermore (who actually uses that word?) the structure of the songs is cliche' whether it be 'intro verse chorus solo verse chorus outro' or 'intro verse chorus verse chorus outro' or 'intro verse chorus verse chorus mid 8 chorus outro' all of which are cliche' song structures, even space dementia has a similar structure, as do the rest of the songs except citizen erased (which is obviously the best muse will ever write so they should just quit now, or change their name to esum and become a pop band...), therefore by logical conclusion the cliche' arguement is null and void. /rant cheese however... is a new thing (with the exception of a few older songs like fillip), but what's wrong with a bit of happiness in music?, it doesnt all have to be doom and gloom surely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis III Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 full of musical clichés, are blandly produced, and very musically safe.! I don't get the criticism of Muse's newer stuff being "musically safe" when they're now experimenting with different song structures, genres and instruments. OoS was mainly just alt. rock with distorted guitars and standard verse-chorus-verse song structures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priad-Luabe Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I don't get the criticism of Muse's newer stuff being "musically safe" when they're now experimenting with different song structures, genres and instruments. OoS was mainly just alt. rock with distorted guitars and standard verse-chorus-verse song structures. my point exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
static shadows Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 really? really? oos is cliche' free? so Plug in baby/bliss/feeling good/new born dont have any cliche's in them?... pretty much all of pib is cliche except for the riff, bliss is complete cliche', feeling good is a cover so i'll leave it out, new born has cliche'd lyrics "bitterness inside" for example and ofcourse the entire chorus is cliche "Destroy the spineless Show me it's real Wasting our last chance to come away Just break a silence Cause i'm drifting away Away from you", furthermore (who actually uses that word?) the structure of the songs is cliche' whether it be 'intro verse chorus solo verse chorus outro' or 'intro verse chorus verse chorus outro' or 'intro verse chorus verse chorus mid 8 chorus outro' all of which are cliche' song structures, even space dementia has a similar structure, as do the rest of the songs except citizen erased (which is obviously the best muse will ever write so they should just quit now, or change their name to esum and become a pop band...), therefore by logical conclusion the cliche' arguement is null and void. /rant cheese however... is a new thing (with the exception of a few older songs like fillip), but what's wrong with a bit of happiness in music?, it doesnt all have to be doom and gloom surely I don't get the criticism of Muse's newer stuff being "musically safe" when they're now experimenting with different song structures, genres and instruments. OoS was mainly just alt. rock with distorted guitars and standard verse-chorus-verse song structures. They don't. They are a mix of punk, noise rock and metal riffs, with prog and classical ideas with guitars which manage to sound synthetic and abrasive vocals. It's full of noise and abrasion and spiralling ideas, but also stays focussed, compact and remains accessible and catchy, rather than being merely abstract and unlistenable (which it could have been). It's prog somehow married with noise rock, but then with a punk and song writing sensibility. It's most definitely not "just alt rock"! Whilst you can find its sources (themselves a bizarre patchwork of Jeff Buckley, Bach, Nirvana, Tom Waits, RATM riffs & computer game music), it still ends up sounding like nothing else ever made. Musical convention says that it shouldn't work. Take something like Bliss with ridiculous SNES synths spiralling everywhere coupled with another distorted spiralling baseline and love lyrics spat with aggressive venom, or Space Dementia with insane classical piano somehow sounding like a punk song such is the aggression and love of noise, or play a distorted Bach riff over a noisy pop song with screaming falsetto vocals, or the willingness to do something like Micro Cuts, or the sheer invention noise and beauty in Citizen Erased, or do a ballad like Screenager full of clunking wood and unsettled atmosphere. There's an utter disregard of what music should sound like and what is palatable, it is musically chaotic and unpredictable. The one big exception is Feeling Good, which a lot of old fans claims feels out of place on the record and attack nearly as unmercifully as later "cheesy" material. But even that takes a simple well known blues riff and twists it into a distorted monster with some unhinged vocals which utterly makes it their own. What you've done is list some lyrics. Which is utterly irrelevant. I can quote some Lightning Bolt lyrics at you and claim they're cheesy: "He wants to party till the wheels fall off", but you could hardly listen to Lightning Bolt and claim they're cheesy or clichéd! Whilst Muse used to sound like no one else, were abrasive, noisy and challenged musical clichés (whilst still being accessible and catchy), they now too often sound like a compilation of musical clichés. Those few songs are regarded as "cheesy" because they sound clichéd. Because they sound like they've been done a million times before, follow predictable patterns, and it's painfully obvious where it tries to affect you. You can almost predict them note for note, and this makes some cringe. And then there's the clean sound, and the safe production, keeping within and conforming to (rather than challenging) what is standard and radio safe. There's no identity there. If you can really imagine NSC, Guiding Light or Invincible on OOS, or at least can't hear the radical musical and stylistic differences between them, then... to be honest I can't work out how to finish that sentence without sounding patronising or insulting, which is not my aim! My point is that there is a huge difference both musically and in the ideology of the music between NSC/Guiding Light/Invincible and OOS-era, whether you can hear it or not. If you like the cheesy stuff, then that's fine, you're completely at privilege to like it. I'm just trying to explain to you why many fans feel as they do, which is what this thread asks for. If you can't grasp those reasons then that's your problem. Oh, and I use "furthermore" all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sventington Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 they don't. They are a mix of punk, noise rock and metal riffs, with prog and classical ideas with guitars which manage to sound synthetic and abrasive vocals. It's full of noise and abrasion and spiralling ideas, but also stays focussed, compact and remains accessible and catchy, rather than being merely abstract and unlistenable (which it could have been). It's prog somehow married with noise rock, but then with a punk and song writing sensibility. It's most definitely not "just alt rock"! Whilst you can find its sources (themselves a bizarre patchwork of jeff buckley, bach, nirvana, tom waits, ratm riffs & computer game music), it still ends up sounding like nothing else ever made. Musical convention says that it shouldn't work. Take something like bliss with ridiculous snes synths spiralling everywhere coupled with another distorted spiralling baseline and love lyrics sat with aggressive venom, or space dementia with insane classical piano somehow sounding like a punk song such is the aggression and love of noise, or play a distorted bach riff over a noisy pop song with screaming falsetto vocals, or the willingness to do something like micro cuts, or the sheer invention noise and beauty in citizen erased, or do a ballad like screenager full of clunking wood and unsettled atmosphere. There's an utter disregard of what music should sound like and what is palatable, it is musically chaotic and unpredictable. The one big exception is feeling good, which a lot of old fans claims feels out of place on the record and attack nearly as unmercifully as later "cheesy" material. But even that takes a simple well known blues riff and twists it into a distorted monster with some unhinged vocals which utterly makes it their own. What you've done is list some lyrics. Which is utterly irrelevant. I can quote some lightning bolt lyrics at you and claim they're cheesy: "he wants to party till the wheels fall off", but you could hardly listen to lightning bolt and claim they're cheesy or clichéd! Whilst muse used to sound like no one else, were abrasive, noisy and challenged musical clichés (whilst still being accessible and catchy), they now too often sound like a compilation of musical clichés. Those few songs are regarded as "cheesy" because they sound clichéd. Because they sound like they've been done a million times before, follow predictable patterns, and it's painfully obvious where it tries to affect you. You can almost predict them note for note, and this makes some cringe. And then there's the clean sound, and the safe production, keeping within and conforming to (rather than challenging) what is standard and radio safe. There's no identity there. If you can really imagine nsc, guiding light or invincible on oos, or at least can't hear the radical musical and stylistic differences between them, then... To be honest i can't work out how to finish that sentence without sounding patronising or insulting, which is not my aim! My point is that there is a huge difference both musically and in the ideology of the music between nsc/guiding light/invincible and oos-era, whether you can hear it or not. If you like the cheesy stuff, then that's fine, you're completely at privilege to like it. I'm just trying to explain to you why many fans feel as they do, which is what this thread asks for. If you can't grasp those reasons then that's your problem. Oh, and i use "furthermore" all the time. *LONG AND LOUD APPLAUSE FOLLOWED BY WHISTLES AND "OH YEAHS"* You certainly represent my sentiments! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze015 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Possible the best post ever on this board by Static Shadows. as do the rest of the songs except citizen erased (which is obviously the best muse will ever write so they should just quit now, or change their name to esum and become a pop band...) Citizen Erased is pretty much typical verse/chorus/verse stuff, turning distortion on/off doesn't alter the underlying chord structure, vocal melody and repetition of the chorus on 3 occasions. You're getting too picky anyway and forgetting what OOS sounded like a decade ago compared to what was around then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meep Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Mark ! I love your love for OOS <3 It furthers my disdain for Guiding Light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn. Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I like both, cheese and hard rock stuff. I love The Resistance and Origin equally. Muse can do hard or soft music at the same time and I adore it. Other bands only can do one type of music and it is boring. But muse includes many kind of styles, which is fantastic. If an album was including 10 songs of the type ''NSC'' or 10 songs of the type ''CE'' probably it will be boring. I prefer the variety. I am conscious that CE is musically better, a masterpiece, and i love it. But i enjoy listening both, Citizen Erased and NSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUSESTL Posted February 26, 2011 Author Share Posted February 26, 2011 I like both, cheese and hard rock stuff. I love The Resistance and Origin equally. Muse can do hard or soft music at the same time and I adore it. Other bands only can do one type of music and it is boring. But muse includes many kind of styles, which is fantastic. If an album was including 10 songs of the type ''NSC'' or 10 songs of the type ''CE'' probably it will be boring. I prefer the variety. I am conscious that CE is musically better, a masterpiece, and i love it. But i enjoy listening both, Citizen Erased and NSC. I agree with this completely. I was not at all trying to criticize them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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